I was just gonna say... That's exactly what I and many others do with CSC. We hang onto it until it's worth more.

I can't really support this. Unfortunately sP will continue to be worth less and less as more CSC-geared shit is introduced to the site. That's just the way these things work. Players need CSC if they want access to a lot of things now (cash shop battle challengers, all of the cash shop items that people want for collections and the like, various pet features, the CW market, auto-training, GA perks, etc. Even though players can buy CSC with sP, that conversion market is entirely player driven, meaning the ever-increasing demand for CSC will continue to drive the value of sP down.

Dropping some 100 Credit Gift Cards in the millionaire center (or RB, or Fragmentizer) might slow down the process for a week or two, but it'd be such a tiny band-aid measure that it wouldn't be worth the lost revenue. Most players who'd use that CSC rather than hoard it don't need 100 credits. You can earn enough sP to buy that in a day of questing, even with how expensive it's gotten.

The only real solution is to make sP a desirable currency again so more people want to sell CSC. This would be good for the site because people would spend real money on CSC to sell.

Part of the problem is too many special currencies. Why couldn't all the items from the quest and forum point shop have been put in the MC instead? There was also a brainstorming session for sP sinks but nothing much came of it.

Staff shouldn't be in control of CSC:sP rates. End of story

It's already lost. Some users admit they don't need to spend csc much..only for cw's mostly. The problem I think is why sell csc anymore? Maybe also the loss of how much sp is worth now, but idk.

This a really bad short term solution. What really needs to happen is long term sP sinks, that will actually solve the problem by keeping sP worth more. But csc is almost inevitably going to rise, and it should so that its desirable and people buy it to support the site.

Subeta already implicitly does this though by deciding what to release in the cash shop and what to release as a sP sink. Or of course, in the BHH where lovely items drawn by the staff artists goes to die.

There has been a high and unmet demand for sP sinks. Nobody wants to harm CSC sales, we just don't want sP to be a useless currency.

If the staff don't want to create sP sinks, then I suggest the extreme solution of retiring sP as a currency and introducing and directing a new main currency that won't inflate like sP is doing. A brutal solution, but it can be effective if done right.

They're not directly saying "hey, X amout of CSC is worth exactly Y amount of sP" by giving users a way to exchange the two with the site itself. I'm all for sP sinks, and yeah I'm not exactly happy with the current CSC rate but I also don't support staff putting CSC cards for sale for sP somewhere. If they want to get them out (which it seems like they don't) then do it somewhere besides the MC.

It might not help the economy that much, or the prices of CSC currently... But it'd sure help my beanbag collection and thats the only thing I truly care about on here so of course I am in favor of this.

I think sp sinks are a better option. Idk why the signet battle challengers were put in the cash shop. Would it have hurt staff for them to be sp sink battle challengers at 10-15mil a pop?

I totally agree with you about staff indirectly affecting the sp:csc ratio. Who thought releasing two zodiac delish lines once a month to the cash shop in addition to everything else that's being added to the cash shop was a good idea? Seriously. Thanks staff, for continually adding things to the cash shop without adding new sp sinks in the meantime. There's really no one else to blame for this.

edit: and before someone says yeah sure it's because of that... think of: cash shop signet battle challengers, new vanity, saevis/marmus/dunderfluf lines, monthly collections, hair coupons, that zoo chance machine, constant zodiac delish lines

and you'll see that rotating MC stuff every what? 3 months? does nothing especially since not everyone cares about dishing millions for a minion or a food item

cruise hair style sp sink was January

Just look at the cash shop schedule since January and notice the dates, how they are no more than a week apart for the most part (April has been a relative god-send in comparison thus far):

January 1 - monthly collection January 8 - yukisumi line January 16 - new vanity lines January 22 - new signet challenger February 1 - monthly collection, warning of pirate items retiring February 3 - cash shop potions half-price now February 7 - marmus line February 13 - scalshal/dunderfluf lines February 18 - announcement of older vanity retiring next day February 20 - delish pye / cees lines February 23 - participation prizes from Valentine's cw contest available to purchase in cash shop February 25 - new signet challenger March 1 - monthly collection March 7 - animal chance machine March 15 - Saevis line March 22 - delish ayr / rees lines March 25 - new signet challenger April 1 - monthly collection April 3 - intrepid line retiring April 12 April 17 - delish tor / uss lines

Where's our sp sink desirable items/features?

csc for sp via mc, nope. csc in the crystal shop makes slightly more sense because there the quantity can be controlled.

But I'm still a bit confused why the staff would possibly do this. I mean, I buy csc with real money now because I don't feel like 27mil is worth it.

You said it way better than I did.

CSC will continue to be worth more than sP because staff releases far more desirable CSC items than anything else. Add the entirely CSC-driven CW market to that, and it's easy to see why sP continues to drop in value. It's not going to change until we get some series sP sinks in place.

What sP releases have we even had lately? We've had.... 8 sP releases to 13 non-sP releases. And most of these sP releases are probably pretty terrible sP sinks, because they're revamps and RSables

Stickers (sP, low demand) Subeautique (sP, rare) Plushie Parlor revamps (sP, low demand) more Plushie Parlor revamps (sP, low demand) Hustler set (sP) Combat Boots (sP) Messenger Bags (sP) Beanbag revamps (sP, low demand)

BHH (Wiz Tokens) Token Shop (Wiz Tokens) Token Shop (Wiz Tokens) Token Shop (Wiz Tokens) Zapper Minions (Wiz Tokens) Dragon's Hoard Dapper (Wiz Tokens)

Delish Tor Uss (CSC) April Collection (CSC)

Quest Shop (QP) Crystal Shop (HPC) Recycling Center (RP) Recycling Center (RP) Forum Shop (FP)

Haha, no kidding! That's a great breakdown! I think subQ is a pretty decent sp sink compared to stuff like the hustler and new rsable items like combat boots (like what 4k out? much wow), but even then it's pretty bad when people have been asking for a slightly increased quantity rate in the subQ. :s I'm all for csc goodies and I get excited for new delish lines just as much as the next person, so they should obviously stay, but there should be something on the end of that see-saw trying to balance this problem out. ...and there's not. I've seen staff posts that said sp is not the problem, that sp sinks aren't really needed, but when you have a ton of goods released only for csc, then yes, sp suffers for it. I don't think sp sinks would automatically fix the problem as in we'd all log in the next day and see the csc:sp ratio a lot better. But it sure would set us on the right path.

what about keith puts actual dollars in the MC I would buy that with sP and then convert it into csc and sell it for sP and do it again BEST SP SINK EVER

putting CSC in the millionaire center would do absolutely nothing to its price in user shops. everyone who's been on site longer than a week knows that CSC is the better longterm investment than SP, and whatever the price might be right now (6 mil per 100 i think?) is exactly what people are willing to pay. hell, history has shown that "what people are willing to pay" is a figure that's constantly shifting further and further forward.

CSC in the MC is such a short-term solution that i'm willing to bet the "term" of the solution in question would only extend to as long as CSC was in the MC. it'd then immediately bounce back to where it is now as investors scramble to snatch up everything even slightly below current market price, because they know that within days- if not hours- the CW-driven demand is going to have buyers scrambling to take advantage of new lower prices. then we're back up to 6 mil/100, if not higher, now that we've all tasted blood, so to speak.

and that's with the assumption that a significant enough number of people would be buying to sell. i know i for one would buy and hoard until the next time i needed to buy a GA/battle signet, and i know i'm not alone. a ton of that CSC would be brought into the system only to directly sink back out, never changing hands once in the process.

no, if you wanted a solution that lasted longer than roughly a day (or however long they'd stick CSC up in the MC), what you'd need to do is either lower demand for CSC- which isn't going to happen- or create some sort of incentive for people to actually spend sp again.

I don't see this working as a solution - but it's been a long time since CSC was offered anywhere and it would be a nice one-day Summer bonus kinda thing :).

Anyway on the topic of CSC: yes inflation is natural, however the price of CSC has inflated so much now that I believe it's starting to be detrimental to the site. If I was a new player looking around at the site for the first time and saw it took 26mil for a 500 card, I'd be like 'well fuck this shit, this site's clearly impossible' and leave because I didn't know better.

There comes a point where CSC CAN INFLATE TOO HIGH and I think we have hit that point or are about to hit it. Adding in CSC cards to places like Recycle Beast/Crystal shop won't harm the amount of CSC being bought by users significantly and seems like a reasonable goal for people to set themselves.

The average user just can't keep up with the amount of Cash Shop releases, it's becoming more and more difficult to do anything on subeta. Collect stickers, beanbags or plushies? Too bad, collection every month + special items like the Marmus. Collect wearables? Too bad, collections and the Boutique sets every month. Battler? Lol no you gotta pay CSC for those challengers too now.

The site has a steady income from people buying CSC for custom wearables - if CSC is to deflate a big help would be to stop putting everything in the cash shop. Put some more things in MC and restockable shops and cure the sP sink problem at the same time. Staff could so easily mix it up and put some challengers or Boutique sets into the MC/SBQ.

I definitely don't think putting csc or gold accounts anywhere is any sort of solution, not even short term ^ as it's already been said most people would buy to hoard/buy to resell/buy to use.

I think the biggest problem right now is all of the really nice stuff goes directly to the cash shop, not to mention CWs, and there really just isn't anything vastly appealing that warrants sP. I say this as a user who has, very typically, bought csc just to sell-- and there frankly just isn't anything worthwhile to buy.

There's the odd new item release, most of which vending deflates in a matter of days (if not hours)-- and the new MC stock once every 4 months, and that's about it really? Most of the new stuff is going to games, which is fantastic don't get me wrong, but it doesn't involve me feeling inclined to sell csc to get any of it because eventually I'll either win it or it'll be cheap in a manner of days.

I think the... currency issue, is an issue too. Vesnali coins, dancing, kissing, new years shop, raffle tickets (at least we can buy those off other users), referral points, quest points ... none of this really centers around sP. It centers around spending time on the site, which is also great for the site but sP has basically become utterly worthless.

Likewise there's things that people have said they'd drop tons of sP on and get that crap out of the system (yeah people currently pay 25m/500 csc but when they no longer have that much sP.. the prices will come down-- but only if there's something worthwhile for sP to get people to actually sell their csc). The old omen war plot prices (I know staff have said they like this idea and hope to bring these back however this hasn't happened yet so I'm just offering a friendly reminder that this hasn't happened yet), and at least one of those bobbleheads would be a great means of removing a great deal of sP from the system. Last I recall that bobble, or a bobble, was put in fro 50m? That's a pretty sweet sink.

There's also the things of old that could use a rightful price reduction (because they're frankly, not worth it, but they are pretty!) (and nostalgic) namely those Legendary weapons. Put all of those in the MC (divide them up by season, if you will) for 35m a pop and let people go nuts. I know there's a handful of leg. combos I'd love for TCs, but they're not worth it for 60m x2 or whatever ridiculous price they're currently at.

^ there's just a few MC sinks that could be put into place, instead of a handful of 2-5m books and plushies that people knock out in a few days time.

PS: MC challenger? MC mods? MC scroll ingredients, MC backgrounds (I quite frequently pay 700 csc for backgrounds, which is roughly 35-40m by today's csc prices?)

PSS: with the one hour wait + probable cap raise (still not holding my breath, waiting for the LOL JK APRIL FOOLS) = I imagine a ton of sP will be gone when the scales come back for 4 months lol.

This might be the most insightful post in the entire thread, honestly. :P

I don't think selling CSC for sP would really affect the economy much because it's a direct exchange. It won't devalue CSC and it probably won't make sP worth more. Basically it doesn't change the net value of the economy, it just shifts it around.

So putting CSC in the MC wouldn't help anything, but it wouldn't hurt, either.

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Look at my beautiful doodling skills

But yeah, if you really want to balance it, we need more stuff to do with sP. Even minor things count as sinks. The Chibi Stickers they just released? Those count as sP sinks.

Disclaimer: I'm not an economist, so I could be entirely wrong. Even though I made a pretty chart.

The thing is, I know exactly how useless sP is, because I've been steadily converting what sP I make to CSC. :D I don't keep more than 5mil on hand/in my vault anymore because there's literally no reason to have more sP than that. Everything takes some kind of other currency.

The MC or clearing out my WL are the only reasons I'd ever spend large amounts of sP anymore, and if I need sP I can just sell off some CSC real quick, and get MORE back than I paid for it in the first place. In fact, sP is becoming devalued so rapidly that I put a note in my widgets just a few months ago saying 5mil=100 CSC. Today, it's 5.8 mil. That's a big jump. That means 1000CSC has jumped in price 8mil since February. It seems like a small amount when we're talking about small amounts of CSC or sP, but it adds up really quickly.

sP sinks aren't going to fix it overnight, of course. But if the staff honestly think sP sinks aren't needed then they aren't paying attention to their own economy. Like says, people can't keep up, and players don't like feeling forced to spend money. NOBODY likes pay-to-win, even people who can afford it. It'd be nearly impossible for a lot of casual players to keep up with one Subeta activity every month without spending real money, let alone if you add in other collections to that. And it's the casual players that need to be catered to the most if you want to keep them around and buying sP. The crazy assholes who've been around 10 years and who've already spent $10k on the site aren't going anywhere no matter how broken it gets.

That is a lovely chart. I do in fact enjoy me some charts, however I felt like it was missing a few things, I hope you don't mind?

Let's consider it [Most] Game Economics vs. how not to do things (I'd be more creative but it's late and I'm tired and this is the best I've got)?

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[edit]

But really everything you said it what staff need to really look at. sP is so worthless and it's getting worse and worse and while its' totally great that people can buy csc with sP no one is going to sell it if there's no reason to :I!