I feel like that implies somehow it's the fault of the users, and we should just 'deal with it', if the site can't keep up.

If the site can't keep up with the user base, can't keep up to modern tech because the code is wonky and it needs a recode to function effectively, or basically anything that has happened so far that is not directly the fault of the users who are simply trying to use the site then that ownus is entirely on the staff and they need to do what they need to in order to step up and fix it. If they can't? Then this will keep happening, and the site will continue to spiral down into its slow, inevitable death.

Am I using the site for free? Yes. Would I give money to Subeta to continue to renew my GA, buy cash shop items, and do other things of the sort if it were consistently stable and I could actually use my GA features on a daily basis without issue? Absolutely. But at this point what they are providing is not worth money, hence why I'm supporting it through other means.

Being patient has been going on for 10+ years. Sitting back and saying "the staff will fix it" has been going on for 10+ years. Something else needs to be done on the part of us, the users, to get things done or else this lag, lack of communication, and everything else wrong with the site will likely never get fixed if the past more than a decade is any indication.

I absolutely agree the site would die a slow death if it doesn’t manage to deal with things like terrible lag, I absolutely agree that it sucks and it is entirely up to the people making the site to keep it running. I also know patience can wear thin, I’ve been here for over a decade too. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to be the meme with the dog in a burning house saying this is fine. I’m just trying to make these two points: 1) Being a turkey butt @ the staff is not going to solve the lag if they simply are incapable of solving the lag. Nothing the users can do outside of investing lots of money in the site (to the point of getting full time staff and coders) could fix the problem of having a small team. 2) You are either gonna have to deal with it or leave, because of point .

I will reiterate I’m not trying to silence complainers, I just think the idea of “we have to be less nice to save the site” is just not realistic.

I think the bigger issue is that I see plenty of people who are just simply leaving instead of dealing with it. Old users taking long hiatuses and returning only to leave again, new users who just don't stick around because of the lag.

It's a cycle. The site would get more money if it were stable and functioning, and I understand they need money to hire more people to help out. But I also agree with ramulet that plenty of users here would be willing to help for free if the staff would just talk to us about it and let that be a thing, especially with code wrangling.

I want this site to be great. I can remember the days when regular attendance was 1k users and events drew in 2-3k or more and I hate to see it dwindling but I can understand why it is. I was hesitant to come back, and while I love the other users I've met here that's really the only thing keeping me around at this point.

Sigilmancy wasn't being mean, and wasn't advocating being mean, so unfortunately, it does comes across as you saying that asking for answers is the same as denigrating the staff, and that we should either shut up or leave, when only one person in this thread said something that could be taken as disparaging to staff.

It gets old. It gets old as hell to be told again and again that we should be patient, that we shouldn't complain, that we should give staff the benefit of the doubt. I want to know what's going on, and we shouldn't have to @ staff for weeks to find out. I do feel like they've taken advantage of a ridiculously dedicated userbase. No other site I can think of would tolerate the way staff on this site handle lag and errors.

Like, @ staff I really hope you're following this thread. Please. I've watched the user count dwindle over the years, and you need to step it up, because I really want to see that trend reverse, and it won't at this rate.

(edited for tone)

I'm sorry, but I don't understand why most people would interpret "it's time to stop being nice" as anything other than advocating being mean?

If it really was not Sigilmancy's intention to do that, then a better choice of words could have been used.

Also just to clarify, yes I would like better communication from staff. I just fear they might not be doing so because of how some users are reacting to the issues. I hope I'm wrong though.

I also clarified that the opposite of 'nice' does not always have to be 'mean', but let me clarify further;

Right now a lot of users are playing nice; continuing to give the site money as if in hopes that will fix things, telling other users to back off the staff because they are 'trying their best', accepting the lack of communication as the norm, things of that nature.

That needs to stop. We need to stop telling other people to back off the staff and start actually having conversations about how unacceptable things the staff are responsible for are and how they can change it such as more/better communication, opening up places that need help to volunteers, ect. Eventually, if enough of us do this kind of thing, the staff will be forced to pay attention or the slow decline will continue until the site dies.

If that comes off as 'mean' then that is up to each individual user's discretion. The staff are human, I understand, but if they cannot handle the responsibility of the site and everything it needs to keep it functioning at the bare minimum and justify the amount of money users spend that's something they need to deal with one way or another.

Despite purported reactions from any particular group of users, the community needs and deserves to know what's going on in regard to the lag issue. It's unavoidable; it's actively disabling the site in such a way that it's impossible to load a single page without waiting several minutes, let alone actually getting anything done.

I'm not advocating for meanness, and I don't think that anyone here is trying to insult staff, but it's easy to fall into frustration and assumptions when there's no transparency on the matter. I can't agree with allowing Masq to move forward when, well, the site itself isn't moving at all.

What Sigil said. The userbase of this site is overwhelmingly nice, almost ridiculously so, and I do feel like that's contributed to the lack of communication.

And I also agree with them that I would rather users stop being nice and start demanding clear communication before seeing the site disappear! I would rather staff be stressed as hell for two weeks because the entire userbase is breathing down their neck with money in hand and coding skills on offer if that would get shit fixed!

Subeta does have a ride-or-die userbase. Staff need to stop taking it for granted and start communicating with us in a more responsible, respectful way.

Man, the lag we had was tame during Survival. This lag is a complete nightmare. Barely anything wants to load now. Ha's don't even load when I want to see the previews of an item, and it takes longer than normal for the dance popups to show up. This is just wearing my patience thin.

And this is the issue I was trying to address in another board. That I feel at times the staff not only don't listen to its users like they should, but they also don't communicate like they should. I feel like sometimes they're just listening to those that drop a lot of money into site, as well as the users who defend them over every little thing.

If you don't mind me asking, have you ever been in a high-stress situation? I've been in a couple and, at least for me personally, the stress actually made it harder for me to work to my best ability.

Yes, we need communication and all that, but I honestly cannot support the "let's make the staff extremely stressed out so that they actually do something" method of asking for it.

I'll say it again:

Dropping in my opinion, been lurking and getting annoyed long enough...

@/Skynix is right I think. If users are being rude, which is happening a lot in some forums now, I believe it works counter productive. Of course we all want to play and dance and enjoy the event and I'm convinced the staff wants the same, but I'd close myself off too if people keep nagging in a rudely manner... I feel the same frustration expecially after downtime but there's nothing more we can do than report the issues we're experiencing to help fixing the site.

It's fine to want to close off and not say anything when things get rough, but that in itself is counter productive. When you are running an entire website, I would say most especially one people are putting money into, there needs to be communication when things like this happen.

People are getting rude? No, people are getting frustrated and have no way to do anything about it because the staff will not talk to us about it. A single news post stating that yes, they know there is an issue and they are working on it and such would go a long, long way. Not something hidden off on twitter or Facebook, not a comment buried in another news post - which, by the way, is what I just found.

Back on the news post about the CW contest and adhering to the CW rules Amber did post that apparently it's a memory leak and it's being looked into. I would not have known this had I not thought to check that post because that was where Amber responded before about the lag issue.

Not here. Not a news post. On another announcement where most people aren't likely to check. That is what frustrates many of us. I've gotten into kerfuffles over the whole 'communication' thing before but this is exactly what I'm talking about. Instead of seeing this thread and coming in here with a staff post to let people know or making a news post we get a buried thing that many people aren't likely to see. Something has been discovered, something is being looked into, but most people probably won't see that and thus it is counter-productive.

Good point, didn't indeed know about that post.

But how do you think they're feeling now, after two periods of downtime and almost six months of lag varying from mild to crippling, like we've seen? That has to be enormously stressful. If you look at my post history, I took the downtime and the resulting issues in November with good humor and understanding. That's actually typical of me, because I'm an old hat at Subeta downtime. After months and months of hideous lag spikes and the usual complete lack of communication, though, I'm officially on the record as over it.

Subeta can do one of two things: Continue on as they are, ignoring requests for information, and attempt to fix it on the DL, potentially losing more and more players as repairs drag on - or they can open up, let the community know what's going on, and potentially request assistance from a remarkably patient userbase, or at least let us know what's up so we feel like there's an end to the issues in sight.

Ignoring a problem never made it go away.

And thank you, I also had no idea about the memory leak! That's exactly the issue. They're terrible about communication.

(edited for t o n e again sorry blah)

I'm not disagreeing with you on wanting them to communicate!

And yes, they probably are really stressed about the ongoing site issues. Why wouldn't they be? That's exactly why wanting them to be more stressed in an effort to make things better is not going to work.

So yes, definitely ask for better communication. But maybe try doing so without taking your frustration out on them.

The thing is, no one is taking their frustration out on staff. One person in this thread made a rude remark. I've seen a handful of other people express exhaustion or frustration on other threads. But on the whole, people aren't riding staff's ass about this - there is no mob with pitchforks and torches. There's mostly tired, sad players who want to have their site back.

I'm not advocating for them to be more stressed, but you know what? I'd take two weeks of stress for staff where the users are helping fix it over six months of stress where users are progressively more frustrated with the site and more likely to leave.

You say you're not advocating them to be more stressed, but I'm having a hard time believing you if I'm being totally honest.

Also I'm kinda confused by this:

If the users were to help out, which is a brilliant idea btw, wouldn't the staff actually be less stressed because they're getting the extra help?

Also I wasn't saying everyone was taking their frustration out on them, although I do apologise if it seemed I was.

I don't really know how you can read "I'd rather they be stressed for a shorter period of time" and assume that means I want them to be more stressed overall, sorry. I don't want the staff to be stressed - I want the site to run well, I want them to have time to work on improvements instead of bug fixes, I want a thriving community. (And yeah, I do think they'd be less stressed with extra help : P one reason I suggest it.)

I understand the impulse to defend the staff at all costs. They really, honestly do their best, and as someone who loves Subeta, I appreciate all of their hard work. But every time anyone says something negative, it's interpreted as an attack by some of the community, and that can be as frustrating as the site issues sometimes!

I hope that teeny downtime we just had fixes the issue, though. We'll see. I hate to be pessimistic about it, but this lag has been intractable.

ETA thank you for the update. Could I suggest you guys use the status.subeta.net site more often? It was showing as All Systems Operational : ))) even during the short downtime, which... frankly... hilarious. I stopped checking it because it's never updated.

Also, yeah, I guarantee there are users who would be willing to help code. Especially if you offered a special forum title or an account-locked wearable, something like that.

I'm not saying users need to stop complaining. I'm not actually arguing with any points you're making about communication. If you actually have constructive suggestions you should say them instead of arguing the semantics of "be less nice" because really, what else is that supposed to mean besides "be meaner"? Being harsher to the staff for the sake of "not being nice" is counterproductive. If you guys can keep moving forward to specifics this thread might become something actually useful, but seriously, be realistic. A mass of blindly angry players making empty demands isn't going to suddenly fix all the problems. Example of something that's actually helpful: "Comments in news posts should be actual news announcements." A real suggestion, good job. That's so much more useful than the whole niceness spiel.

[edit] Thanks for the post Keith, I hope it can help some people get a better grasp on what is realistic here.