I agree with and . I don't see why making a funding page like had mentioned would be a bad thing. Even if it was for just improving things on the site. Also said it might help bring more users and awareness of the site in general. It would help the site grow more.

There should be more communication from staff about problems like others have posted before. They should be open and honest with us. There shouldn't be anything wrong in telling us. It is better to tell users what it is so that they know it will take time instead of just having them guess at it. What if a user found a solution to the problem they are having or a short term one? Then it would help move somethings along smoothly a little at least for the time being.

We posts these things because they continue to happen. Do we want them to happen? Of course not! but there lay the cards and sadly the cards don't lie.

I don't think Scarsdale mean that other programmer are incapable of learning the code, but that it'll take time. It take a while to get familiar with the logic, structure, design, etc. Even if they're a super quick learner, I would think it'd take at least a week or so. Longer if we don't want them to break the site. So if they hire someone, it'd be for a few months....which means it will be expensive. I think if they had that kind of money, they might as well hire someone permanently rather than temporarily. But if they put up a funding page, Subeta would need at least $10k (to hire someone for 3 months, based on an annual salary of $40k). Of course, if they hire someone, it'll probably have to be longer than 3 months...

I am usually quite vocal about Subeta being kinda crummy, but I'll be frank: I'm getting bored here.

At no point during my years on-site have I bought anything with real money, and while I had hoped that would change as the site grew and stabilized... the growth and stability really haven't come.

The only thing I've been pleased with from the beginning is the artwork, and -- unpopular opinion time -- I have been finding that lacking lately. I love when Subeta's artwork is consistent, and it just hasn't been lately, not to me.

Are things better than how they used to be? Of course. But 'better' isn't the same as 'good'. And so until things are 'good' for me, I'll be spending my time (and money) elsewhere.

I really don't think it'll take a while for someone to get accustomed to the coding. Frankly the base of subeta is like the base of 40 other websites out there, and any websavvy programmer should be able to see what's wanted, what's here, and roll with it.

Because, for example, as a pipeline GIS tech... the core (which is what we're talking about here) of every single pipeline system ever built and ever put in a hole and covered up is 99% like every single OTHER pipeline system ever built.

All steel and plastic pipe has an outside diameter, wall thickness, specification of which it was manufactured, a long seam, a girth weld seam, a grade, and a yield strength. It doesn't matter if it's made in America, Mexico, Korea, Greece, or China-- all pipe has this. All pipeline companies, use these pipes. They also all use elbows, tees, valves, taps, flanges, launchers, receivers, drip piping, and wyes. If I was fired today and went to work for a rival pipeline company, guess what?

95% of what I'd be doing for an entirely different company that handles their information databases via different software, would be exactly the same. Once you know pipeline, you know pipeline. Just like a programmer who knows java, knows java. If they can't easily apply their skill to different websites with relative ease, they are a failure and either need to find a new career or need to stop being a contractor and find one company to work for.

It might take them a few days, but a reputable freelance programmer is a person who's skilled and confident enough with their skills to be able to offer services to a magnitude of different companies. There's also contracts involved, so if this person "steals" subeta's coding then there will be lawsuits involved.

I do not buy it being complicated to show someone what's up, nor that subeta's code is too advanced for an outsider to get in tune with. Frankly if a multibillion dollar pipeline company can entrust it's highly sensitive, well guarded, live database in which it's entire onecall system is dependent on can entrust it's database access to contract programmers, there is literally only two reasons subeta can't:

1. Because reasons.
2. Money.

I think "it's too hard to explain" is code for "our code is so broken that no other programmers want to touch it."

I was gonna type up something like that but I'm glad you did since I'm much less articulate lol.

Basically covered all my points. Code should be standard. Make them sign confidentiality agreement. Programmers should be educated enough to be utilized properly. Plus, they can focus on more mundane/repetitive stuff so that Grelca/Keith/Scars can focus on bigger picture items.

Not trying to be harsh and perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see why a new programmer will need to know the intricacies of how the entire site works. Why cant he/she just focus on one specific aspect of the site? Thats like saying google cant hire someone to work on their Google Maps app because they didnt help build android from the ground up.

idk, maybe subeta's base code IS so messed up, we cant' make otherwise logical assumptions. (but then again, wouldn't that mean its time to hire people to rebuild the system?).

I like the site and just dont wanna see it crumble and fall apart.

With the way this site is going, I'm almost ashamed to say I've been a member for almost ten years. I don't recommend it to any of my friends because I get so frustrated within about ten minutes of logging in from nothing working long enough for me to do anything I want to do that I end up logging off and going elsewhere.

If there was communication from staff as to WHY things were broken (and continued to be broken, because ffs everything being broken has gone on for as long as I can remember) I would be more understanding but I feel as though staff has disappeared and doesn't give a fuck except to release items paid for with cash--for features that seldom work more than 10% of the time.

This is retype number two because the first post was really angry and filled with paragraphs of caps lock.

I understand 3 coders on site knowing all the sites insides and outs, what I dont get is the idea that the coding is "too complex so we can't bring in aditional help."

If so, then things are either never going to get finished and the site will continue limping along at a snails pace and eventually die because the users have been sick of it for several years or the site will get fixed when we're all 90 if even that. I get that it's a lot of money but people, including myself are more than willing to donate money to a fundraiser that goes directly to hiring someone.

If the code is so goddamn messed up in the revamped areas, (which it shouldnt be because wasn't that the whole point of the recode in the forums, wardrobe, achievements????????????? otherwise what are you even doing with that old coding?????????) then delete it and start over.

I am so iffy about even buying CSC because in the past when i have, nothing happens in regards to fixing things. I'm so incredibly jaded that I spend my money on other things. I've even started taking large breaks from the site because the forums are so broken. They used to be where I would roll around all day and now it's like hahano.

I logged on the other day to 200+ pings, 90% of which were the same 20 or so pings duplicated to hell. And I can't just delete them all because haha wow I would actually like to check the pings. If pings are broken then what's the point of the forums. What's the point of forum groups that you can't ping because there's only a 5% chance people will get the ping? If I had an art thread open right now I would be so frustrated and paranoid that people were ignoring me but really the pings just aren't going through. People use Subeta's art market to earn the only money they can so if it's broken ??? They're gonna go somewhere else that works, obviously. There's a user of the site gone. And that's just one thing.

Keeping the site up in this unstable, broken limping way is not doing Subeta any favors. New members join, see how broken everything is and leave. Inactive members log on, see it's still broken and leave. Old members come on the forums and bitch and moan about things that never seem to get fixed. We're all so bitter we could chill in a lemon tree and nobody would be the wiser.

I literally had a friend sign up for this site THIS WEEK. I did not recommend it to her. I did not tell her to sign up. She told me she had signed up and my reaction was, "Why have you done this, it's shit. Everything is shit. It will always be shit." The fact that Subeta has that automatic reaction within me is disgusting. I'm disgusted with myself for feeling that way because I love this site and want it to work. I want it to be awesome but the fact of the matter is, it does not have the chance to be awesome with all these problems and broken areas.

[edit] ANON YOU'RE P COOL TOO BRO

OMG EDITING MY POST MADE IT DUPLICATE HOLY SHIT SUBETA YOU'VE DONE IT AGAIN

I'm the angry representative of the people, clearly. Andrea and Speiro are so better at being nice and communicating well, I'm just the grumpy old bat.

I nearly died laughing at 's post because I think it's true.

I think the coding is a patchwork of old coding and new coding that has been added to solve glitches and now, it can barely stand together, lags, glitches, cause strains on the servers. That programming was just putting band-aids on wounds and now, the wounds are festering and purulent and gangrene is so deeply ingrained within the code that yeah, you'll have to hire another programmer at a premium.

Are you seeing how many old users, people that have been here for years, are seeing the same issues as I do? Are not seeing any improvement and are not as willing to go and spend in the cash shop because by now, they know that it won't bring improvement in the short term? Because they know that even if they buy from the site, the wardrobe will most likely have not improved, the forums won't have improved, the coding won't have improved but hey, we got cool donation presents and that's a-ok.

I'm at the point where I think the site should be taken down and fixed, then beta tested. And then, reopened to everyone slowly, to make sure it can handle traffic.

We are headed into September. Do you know what that means. Events after event after event until May. Therefore, the time to fix the crap is NOW.

^^ I'd vote for them, early and often.

I had some of my friends and family sign up for the site when they had that 500csc promotion. None of them are here now. Some of them could not even finish the tutorial because it was so broken. A few stayed around for a couple days then stopped coming on with basically a "yeah I have better functioning sites to waste time on...so bye" reaction. I really wonder what the current new customer retention rate is, because it has to be abysmally low.

Like many, I cannot imagine that Subeta's code is so site-specific that it takes a programmer that also plays the game to understand it. I mean I'm sure it helps, but people can learn and professionals do this for a living. If it is indeed that complicated then the site is in an even more dire state than I imagined. What happens when one of the coders leaves the site or whatever and can't come work here anymore? The already meager and overworked team is now even smaller and you're saying we can't hire anyone to replace them?

I have tried to post on this about 5 times and it hasn't worked. Let's try again. Sorry if this stops making sense; I've retyped it so many times that I'm past the point of proofreading.

I've been here 7 years as of this upcoming Friday. I was a daily player, spending (probably too many) hours on for each of those days. I spent spare money on the site when I had it to burn. At the start of the year I took an accidental hiatus, popped back in in April, left for another month, and have been trying to get back into it ever since. Previously broken things were still broken, and the newly introduced things -forums! rounded corners! spinny wheel loading graphic! so cool!- were released half-broken. Now, I'm doing good to try and log in once every other day, and I haven't stuck around for more than 45 minutes on any attempt.

That does not convince me to want to stick around when I have more time-effective and productive things I could be doing. The forums were an excellent time suck and way to stay involved. They hardly work for me now. I miss my sprinters and cultmates, but I can barely get to the forums to interact with them and keep up with what's going on. Everything is a mess.

I want subeta to realize its potential. I want it to work reliably and be successful so I can go back to being on all the time and comfortable dropping spare cash on it. I understand that it's so broken that a massive overhaul is needed, and that it won't be easy, but I don't buy that subeta's setup is so unique that no competent programmer could be of use after a little bit of a learning curve. Not a friend of a friend, not some guy you know that does coding, but a true freelance contract programmer. Unless "unique" = "mangled and pieced together beyond all recognition" so that any programmer worth their salt would charge an absurd amount to make it worth their while, in which case i understand that the site doesn't have that chunk of change lying around to toss at an outside hire.

I'm tired of feeling like things are just patched instead of repaired, of new things being rolled out that are more broken than not, and new things being rolled out before the previous thing is running smoothly. I would rather have a few solidly-functioning aspects of the site and have to wait on the rest one by one than have many barely-functioning ones. I'm frustrated with the state of things. I don't remember the time I spent actual money on the site, because I'm not 100% comfortable with where it might be allocated. My time is better spent elsewhere, because the frustration of dealing with a mostly broken site just isn't worth it.

How many users have to feel this way and leave before PTB realize this isn't working?

That's how I'm interpreting that tbh, every time I try to imagine Subeta's code it's the computer equivalent of...

I like hanging around to see what's gone wrong now, cos I'm that kind of person, but that's about it now, I've not been inclined to put real money into the site for a long time. All I'm seeing is older users dissatisfied with the 'progress' and newer users not sticking around. Well before the forum updates went live I said there was going to be a negative impact on traffic, and these days I can just say /all/ updates will lead to less traffic.

I agree with who's managed to say what I would be thinking if I had the wherewithal and a better temper. I'd much rather see the site taken down, backed up thoroughly, fixed and slowly reopened back to the public shiny and new. I expected issues with the site until all the updates were in sync, that goes without saying, but some of the issues we've been facing should never have gotten past beta, or should at LEAST be more openly addressed in a public forum such as the news. I didn't expect pings to get fixed quickly, despite their importance, but I did hope we'd at least get some good feedback on it. I may have missed it, since I've given up looking, but I was keeping a close eye on the threads seeing if it was discussed, and I've seen zip.

That said I seem to have better luck in my life since spending less time on Subeta so... idk I guess it's working out for me, keep it up so I get this job tomorrow okay?

We all had to start somewhere, right? Nobody is born a programming genius. You just need to find the right person who is willing to work, open to learning, comfortable in asking for help or assistance when needed, and confident in their skills.

Have them start small, then let them take on bigger projects as they get more familiar with Subeta's scripts and functions.

Nobody can learn if you don't even give them a chance.

[edit]I imagine things would be completely different if there was no cash shop aspect to the site, or had less emphasis at least. The site is free-to-play, but if you want to truly succeed, buy your way to success with cash.

Users Online: 612

That alone is saying something.

You know what? I'm damn happy for the fact that my health finally allows me to work fulltime again, that way there's no boredom left that could bring me to log in here for more than a couple of quests. Sad thing to say maybe after being loyal for more than 8 years straight but unfortunately it's nothing but the truth. Tbh I wouldn't even be surprised to come online one day only to find out that Subeta has been taken down for good but whatever...

(Nevertheless, the somewhere mentioned upcoming holiday season is going to give me batshit nightmares from now on, thanks a lot.)

This reminds me of yet another thing Subeta thing: the hole is always much, much deeper than one can possibly imagine. Quite literally, there are more issues in Subeta than are dreamt of in your philosophy! Idk, I'm out of suggestions at this point, just kinda hoping at least the to-do priorities get sorted out straight.

I can see it now-- [Avatar=andrea] [avatar=sopheroo]

[User=Andrea] / 2016 [B]Change and Representation You Can Belive In![/b] You're forgetting an important addition to the dream team

[avatar=speiro]

HAHAHA omg where do I vote?!?

Honestly I feel like Subeta is just going down. We run on a patchwork knitted thing that barely works and run anymore. The wardrobe is shitty and complicated and barely hold together let alone working. When I post on the forum it keeps telling me every single time "You can't post twice in a row!",yes I am aware you skunk but someone else posted???I don't get it??. And random 502, and random lags happening for nothing while you quest. And shitload of broken image, and sometimes half of Subeta end up naked with 5 pages in their wardrobe. During an event the site is slow as a sloth and most of the time we end up breaking the site. We get a message saying "Bugs are fixed!" but it still happen (cough forums switching place cough). I'm from the old Subeta and while I enjoyed my time, now it's more like a chores to me to visit. I don't mean to be hurtful, but getting the same thing is getting old.

I, someone who's rather critical of real-money advantages and/or grubbing on Subeta, suggested a Kickstarter back in 2010.

At some point the site is just plugging it's ears and saying "we don't want advice, we don't want help, we've got to do it all ourselves" despite the fact that the water is up around their necks already, and not stopping anytime soon.

Users have tried to remind the site. Tried to advise it. Tried to offer to help. Given feedback. Given suggestions.

It's done nothing, or nearly nothing (sometimes communication improves for a max of about a month until it's forgotten about, and that's a major fucking victory sadly).

I had to tell the site to go renew it's freaking incorp and it still took them months to do it.

The answer is absolutely, 100% to quit. To stop buying CSC (or submitting CWs that get others to buy CSC). To stop visiting. I know I'm around a lot less lately, barely did any of Peekaboo after I saw that it wasn't that special / was half CSC. But that's hard for a lot of people since they've invested a lot of time and money, or they still get fun and enjoyment out of some aspects of the site. I get that.

I've always thought the major reluctance behind putting the site down to rebuild from the ground up was that some high ranking staffers would have to get offline jobs during that time frame. And as good as subeta is with deadlines and reliability, that's an impossible request.

At this point, I would actually rather the site be down for a month, or six months. I'd rather Subeta hold a Kickstarter to let them keep their staff able to work during the downtime, to hire programmers...

... because yeah, I get that Subeta has features that a lot of coders won't have worked with before, but good documentation and commenting goes a long way. They'll pick it up, unless the issue is that the code is not complex, but garbled beyond repair.