I disagree with the foreign language rule and want to see changes made to this rule.
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I feel like what we really need is an open and honest conversation with the mods discussing this. We never hear any of their opinions. They may not have the ability to change rules, but they have a hell of a lot more of a voice than users do. Not-so-shockingly the only comment a mod has made on this thread was to vaguely tell a user to quit talking about xenophobia (not a good look). The times are changing, the userbase is global, and technology has made it easier than ever for us to allow at least limited communication in non-English languages.
Also, side note regarding the issue that “how do we expect them to even know if someone is being abusive in another language”—the same way we expect them to know anything, someone can report it or file a ticket. There are constantly new inappropriate terms being added to the English language and I can think of a good handful that I could say right now and not get flagged cuz they’re just.. regular words used in a different way. But if another user knew what I was referring to, and knew I was being inappropriate, they could report me, and I might get warned. Maybe. c;
I'm a bit late to this conversation, but I find it completely ironic, hence even appropriating that a website, which, inturn took its name from a non-english slang word , is now coming down with the ban hammer on people using foreign terms.
I'm hoping we hear from the mods, too. The implications for their work on the site could change fairly significantly depending on what/whether changes are made to the rule.
As for the "how are mods supposed to know," the reason I brought it up is because I wondered how often mods are pointed to a potentially-abusive situation on the forums/shoutbox via ticket, versus how much of their work is actively checking in on threads. In the past, site staff have indicated that they're watching controversial threads, and I imagine they're reading this one as well to make sure the discussion stays relevant and appropriate. But I haven't been a mod, so I can't speak either way to whether they "patrol" or are called in as-needed more often. It's probably a decent mix of both.
More importantly than that, I'm personally more concerned with the less clear-cut examples. If someone's being outright abusive, even with a very literal/broken translation, the mod should be able to glean enough information to know. However, a heated discussion could be far more nuanced and complicated than any online translator could make up for. Or, the discussion might involve political/cultural aspects the mod isn't aware of. My concern is how the mod is supposed to fairly make a judgment in those situations where they don't speak the language.
To speak from experience--this personally happened to me and another user, when a third user called us a politically-charged term in Indian politics. In the thread, no mod stepped in to say anything about that action--probably because they didn't quite understand the gravity of the accusation. And we were all speaking English. ¯(ツ)/¯
My point is that languages and communication is very complicated, and only intended to bring these issues up as things to think about before significantly changing the rule either way. Whatever the staff decide to do, I want them to make a decision where moderation can happen as equitably and fairly as possible. Especially considering that mods are unpaid.
Ah, yeah, the unpaid aspect makes me think that these changes might be “too much effort,” especially if none of the mods/staff personally care about the issue. Plenty of users have offered to volunteer around the site if it helps keep Subeta going, though, so maybe they should consider that avenue. They’re doing it for Custom Wearables, with the user council, so why not do it for outdated&vague rules?
But I think I might know the situation you’re referring to—I don’t want to get warned for referring to another issue, cuz that’s happened before (thanks Subeta), but if it’s the same thread, god damn that situation made me so angry. Especially considering the conversation we were having in that thread.. and the number of users who were pointing out the problem. (The vague “no targeting” rule makes it hard to talk about connected issues also!)
About foreign language petnames and usernames
About the "within reason" expression used in the previous ticket
About using commonly-known words from foreign language, such as bonjour
About forum groups and foreign language usage
This is problematic because it's euronormative (and thus not race-neutral). To judge the acceptability of a word based on how "commonly integrated" it is, is to accommodate the speakers of colonial languages like French and Spanish but not speakers of indigenous languages like Quechua, nor speakers of slave languages like Hausa, nor speakers of refugee languages like Vietnamese.
Perpetuating privilege to speakers of colonial languages by deeming their greetings "commonly integrated" and thus acceptable is shameful.
Agreeing with osterizer, it's either all or nothing.
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They're examples, they're not the complete list of what is accepted - the message is that things like greetings and salutations are fine to use.
French and Spanish were used as examples because well, French is the second most used language in Canada, and Spanish is the second most used language in the United States - two countries which compose a fair chunk of the Subeta Userbase.
Simple as that.
<p>
Hello, Sopheroo, and thank you for filing a ticket to discuss this matter with me! You are correct, and we do have some common-sense exceptions to the foreign language/English-only rules, which include (generally speaking - it&;s evaluated on a case-by-case basis, of course) pet names (within reason). So your example is spot-on.
About the "within reason" expression used in the previous ticket
Could you please provide context for these two ticket answers? I would like to know what question you posed to them to better understand their responses.
I'm currently sorting and compiling everyone's responses to this thread thus far and hope to make a gigantimous post soon.
First one
<p>Recently, I&;ve been seeing some worries concerning how the foreign language rule is applied - people are especially worried concerning foreign usernames and foreign pet names.</p>
<p>Personally, I&;ve jogged my memory about how I remembered it from the time I was on staff (keep in mind that it was like, in 2009, an eternity ago), and I do not remember issuing a single warning to people who were discussing the name of their pets on the pet forum, even though they used a word or two in a foreign language to explain.</p>
<p>I always felt like the point of the rule was to make sure that people weren&;t evading other site rules by using foreign language as a crutch; such as harassment, targeting or cheating.</p>
<p>It was also to help moderation because I don&;t think we have anyone on staff who speaks 10+ languages to properly moderate comments and forums in all of these languages</p>
<p>To sum it up, I always thought that the rule was something like this.</p>
<p>OKAY: "My pet is named BelleFleur, Belle means Beautiful in french, and Fleur is also french for flower!"</p>
<p>NOT OKAY: Profile or forum conversation in french, rule-breaking or not.</p>
<p>Can you light my lantern, and tell me if my 2009 logic is completely wrong?
Second one
<p>I mean, that sounds obvious to me, given that the entire point of disallowing foreign language conversation is about making sure the rest of the rules are properly moderated and respected.
Okay, so my hypothesis has always been that English-only rule is due primarily to legal reasons. It's not only what has mentioned about fairly and consistently moderating user interactions, which I agree with, but if anything potentially illegal/unfortunate happens and individuals want to sue Subeta or pursue legal action, you can see why it's in Subeta's interest to conduct everything in English, because I don't know if "we didn't understand what this person was saying" flies in court. Subeta has a public responsibility.
I empathize with everyone's thoughts. But I suspect that Subeta is very much a labour of love, and that it's not big enough to be able to be cope multilingually. I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but it reminds me very much of the same rule I used to get in public schools, about speaking my own foreign language. Teachers wouldn't let us.
after fully reading the thread that spawned this discussion, i'm honestly more confused. if the rule is in place to keep things "safe and appropriate" then why was it enforced as it was? and if it's not actually being enforced for that reason, and it's actually just a no-tolerance for other languages, how is it justifiable for there to be the plethora of non-english words on the site for official items, places, etc.? but clearly it's not a complete no-tolerance policy, as shown by Sopheroo's ticket responses. so what gives? either way the rule isn't being enforced properly. the warnings issued in that thread are just ridiculous.
I've finally got a few hours to respond to this. I know this issue is bigger than me, but I feel a responsibility to help guide it along since I raised the issue.
Warning: this is going to be a big post, and I'm not including a tl;dr at the end, but I have tried to break it up into small parts as much as possible.
There are several issues tangled up in here, and I'm going to try my best to address them all.
Issues with allowing foreign languages
- Lack of moderators who speak a foreign language
- Lack of time for the moderators (who are voluntary and unpaid)
- Autotranslators can't do everything
Since then, it has been discovered and confirmed that private forum groups can use foreign languages at their discretion. As a result, I am considering creating a forum group for people who would like to converse in a non-English language. I anticipate that this would be a big undertaking and I would need the help of other users who speak languages I don't know, so I will be creating a post/survey later asking who would be interested in being a member or even becoming a mod.
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- Save the children: "[this rule] was made to keep kids safe on here, with intentions being no different than the word filter for adult language"
- This is often cited in the same context as mods not being able to fully understand what is said in a foreign language by using an autotranslator like Google Translate. However, I'm having a hard time picturing anything being discussed about Subeta in a foreign language that would not be immediately obvious.
For example, let's say there was a glitch that if you hit CTRL on your keyboard five times while on the Adopt-R-Us search page, you could adopt anybody's pet - just steal it right out of their account. It would be very difficult to discuss that without mentioning words that probably wouldn't even translate in the first place to the other language, so English would have to be used interspersed with the foreign language. Even if the language did happen to have equivalents, or the user was able to think up euphemisms that another user would understand, it would still sound very suspicous when translated. (This may require more critical thinking, however, and that takes time, but that was already acknowledged in Issue as being a problem.)
- Again, if someone is talking inappropriately or if there is a misunderstanding, it is the responsibility of the user to report the issue to admin and ask for help. Things can be misunderstood and insidious intentions hidden even when everyone is speaking English, as 's experience indicates. We can't wholly rely on mods to catch everything, no matter what language is being used.
It is an unfortunate reality that some people have a score to settle or just enjoy getting other people riled up. These people are slippery and will take any available avenue to get away with it. But people like this also tend to establish a pattern. Maybe one misunderstanding can be understood, but several reports from different users cannot. I think Subeta admin understand this, too, and have tiered discipline built into the system for this reason.
But maybe I'm being too optimistic here. Come ask me how I feel about this after trying to moderate a foreign language forum group for a while.
However, I will say that it is not practical to consider Subeta an English-only site just because it is based in the U.S. There are many international users on this site, and many who speak English as a second (or third or fifth, etc.) language, some of whom have spoken up on this thread already. Furthermore, as a site on the "world wide web", Subeta is automatically a part of the global arena.
I think the "English-only" rule was initially created in recognition of this: the admin of this site recognized their limitations and implemented the rule so that they could maintain some control on the dialogue even as more non-English speakers joined. It even says in the original rule, "This is not to inconvenience our international players, but to ensure that the site remains safe and appropriate at all times."
But the times have been changing, and this two-sentence rule is no longer sufficient or helpful to the site. Therefore, the rest of this post will be about ways that the rule can be changed to be more clear and inclusionary without running into the issues already mentioned above.
Changing the "English only" rule
Context
Most of us want context to be considered when moderating foreign language usage and considering what is appropriate:<ul>
<li>"Context matters a lot more - it&;s not a black and white issue." </li>
<li>"When...people defending themselves and their first language [get a warning or reprimand by staff] for trying to properly correct the person with the correct phrase the person was not saying correctly, I just can&;t support staffs decision." </li>
<li>"I was also given an official (not just verbal haha) warning a few days ago for posting Chinese on a thread that&;s topic was Chinese." </li>
<li>"I agree with most users that context matters. While it&;s not feasible to have full discussions in foreign languages on Subeta, words and short phrases should be allowed in the right context." </li>
<li>"I very strongly feel this should be changed/that context should be taken into consideration when issuing warnings about this rule." </li>
<li>"Listen, zero-tolerance cannot be enforced by UAs. It&;s impossible to do so...What I, and most of the users here want, is more leeway concerning the usage of foreign language." </li>
<li>"Just that the existing rule should be modified slightly in the name of common freaking sense and people should stop getting warnings for crap reasons like the above [using Chinese characters in a thread discussing the Chinese language in the context of Shengui Guo&;s name]." </li>
<li>"I think a more serious problem is the unwillingness of the moderating staff to use the &;safe and appropriate&; intent of the rule to guide their moderation...Why do you treat this rule as one that&;s not subject to wise judgment?" </li>
<li>"I wholeheartedly support finding a method...for the rules to be less blindly enforced devoid of context." </li>
<li>"I think the context of the discussion should be taken into account when enforcing this rule."
I took the time to type out all of those responses for Subeta's staff: I really want to underscore how much we're asking for this to be a part of the rule and the application of the rule. Language doesn't happen in a vacuum, and it shouldn't be treated as such.
This should especially hold true when users are discussing Subetan items or Subetan lands and when talking about their foreign-word-named pets and usernames. The former group includes things that are integral to Subeta, such as Shengui Guo and the "Namaste" sticker posted by earlier. There is a fine line that Subeta has to walk here. Using foreign languages (and cultures) as inspiration for items and lands can be inclusionary and invite global unity if done correctly. But if discussion of those things and their related foreign languages in context is shut down because the "English only" rule has been violated, then Subeta comes down on the wrong side of cultural appropriation.
The latter group - pet names and usernames - have been the subject of some debate on this thread, and I think it's at least partly my fault for causing confusion. According to , "Foreign petnames have been allowed on the site since it was still in diapers." was able to get further clarification from admin themselves: "we do have some common-sense exceptions to the foreign language/English-only rules, which include (generally speaking - it's evaluated on a case-by-case basis, of course) pet names (within reason)."
The problem, which can be read between the parentheses of the above quote, is what is considered "within reason". Again, this is something where I think context matters. I think users should be able to freely discuss their foreign-named pets and their usernames, including their meanings, without fearing repercussion for acknowledging the foreignness of these names. They should be able to show it in the original spelling if the Latin alphabet isn't used, and they should be able to link to pronunciation guides or reference sites (such as Wiktionary) to further explain the usage. Sure, some of this can be relegated to the pet profiles/user profiles themselves, but it really stymies conversation to always be saying "See on Bob's profile this thing we can't actually talk about here." Again, and I guess I'll say it ad infinitum, context matters.
Reasonable Word Usage
As I stated in my initial post, the "what constitutes English" question is problematic. Admin's response to Sopheroo's ticket states that they use "common-sense exceptions to the foreign language/English-only rules" and "what we refer to as 'commonly integrated words' are also exceptions, so 'bonjour' or 'hola' or other words along those lines are also generally okay." So it seems that they already acknowledge that "English only" is not as black and white as it may seem.However, the problem is that this had to be found out via ticket and is not evident from the rule itself or anywhere publicly. How are users to know what would get them into trouble and what would be fine?
I would like to propose an ever-expanding acceptable list of foreign words that can be used even in English-only parts of the site. Maybe mods/admin already have a list like this that they'd be willing to share, or one could be created as a Google doc or forum thread where users could help crowdsource appropriate words. One that could easily be ctrl+f by users and mods to make sure that a word is okay, with the word in Latin letters as well as its own alphabet when appropriate and a short definition. This may be a bit labor-intensive at first, but eventually it would be a fairly recognizable and familiar list with new words/phrases added in only every now and then.
To address one of 's points, I have a feeling that this list would include more Eurocentric or Asiatic words than others just because those are the words that the users on this site regularly use. But if the list is dynamic like I intend, it can include words from lesser-known languages at the request of users. It shouldn't be difficult to add a word of greeting from Turkish or Swahili or Mayan.
And if this list was a forum post, users could post to it to ask if a word or phrase was okay to use with impunity. (Or maybe this would need to be at least two threads: one official, and one for asking questions, because I can imagine the second reaching 5000 posts pretty easily.)
I know this isn't a perfect solution, but it's better than the confusion created by the current rule, and the current requirement that users individually submit tickets asking about individual words that they now individually know about but others do not. This should be more public information than it currently is.
[Edit]Thinking this over after posting, it may be possible to have broad categories of acceptable foreign language words and terms without having to list them all (such as greetings, food, well-known phrases like the "ad infinitum" I used earlier in this post) but still also allow users to request additions or ask about specific words that they may be unsure about. This would cut down on the labor of maintaining such a list and avoid making a list that looks exclusionary of certain languages while still giving mods and users a reference guide for public conversations on Subeta.
Instead of just listing where foreign languages are not allowed, I think this should be reworded so that it is clear that you can use them on certain user-edited parts of the site, such as pet profiles, user profiles, and smail. Not only will this clear up some of the confusion but it will also allow the site to feel more inclusive and give users options and outlets.
It doesn't have to be an exhaustive list, and the list can change of course, if admin sees rampant abuse in one place or the other. It can even include a warning saying so! But by listing both the places where foreign languages cannot be used and where they can, this rule gains clarity and feels a lot less exclusionary.
I think what it boils down to is just a little more clarity in the terminology of the rule, considered jointly with the "what" question: context.
Examples can be given to develop some fuzzy parameters, at least. For instance, if you're talking about your foreign-word pet name and mention that it comes from your favorite song by the artist Nena, maybe you can quote the title but posting the entire set of lyrics would be too much.
Again, I've kinda...run out of ideas here (I've been working on this post for about seven hours, so please take pity on me!) so I'm hoping everyone else will be able to pick up what I'm putting down here and fill in the blanks.
In conclusion, my goal with this thread is to be able to present Subeta admin with a feasible and usable rewording of the English-only rule that addresses the concerns brought up in this thread.
Maybe they won't choose to use it, but it may give them some idea of how to approach this issue.
This is actually super relevant to me, now that I'm revisiting this thread. One of my pets is based of off a creation myth, and specific entity therein, from Shinto mythos. It uses a variety of Shinto concepts and names, including the word kami, which cannot be translated perfectly into any other language because of its specific use and cultural weight. A lot of people translate this word as "god" or "deity", but it's much bigger and unique in a way that cannot be translated into English in a single word.
I was, admittedly, kind of wary about writing their story because of the foreign language rule! I figured that a few words would be fine, especially since you can just look them up and see what they mean, but the uncertainty's still there and I don't want it to end up stifling creativity for others like it may have for me. :/
This also applies to things like discussions of culture, backstory, etc. concepts that may have to do with creative work on this site but take place in public spaces. A lot of languages have "harmless words or phrases that don't translate terribly well", and having a blanket rule rather than contextual consideration is going to do more harm than good.
Reasonable Word Usage
As I stated in my initial post, the "what constitutes English" question is problematic. Admin&;s response to Sopheroo&;s ticket states that they use "common-sense exceptions to the foreign language/English-only rules" and "what we refer to as &;commonly integrated words&; are also exceptions, so &;bonjour&; or &;hola&; or other words along those lines are also generally okay." So it seems that they already acknowledge that "English only" is not as black and white as it may seem.</p>
<p>However, the problem is that this had to be found out via ticket and is not evident from the rule itself or anywhere publicly. How are users to know what would get them into trouble and what would be fine?</p>
<p>I would like to propose an ever-expanding acceptable list of foreign words that can be used even in English-only parts of the site. Maybe mods/admin already have a list like this that they&;d be willing to share, or one could be created as a Google doc or forum thread where users could help crowdsource appropriate words. One that could easily be ctrl+f by users and mods to make sure that a word is okay, with the word in Latin letters as well as its own alphabet when appropriate and a short definition. This may be a bit labor-intensive at first, but eventually it would be a fairly recognizable and familiar list with new words/phrases added in only every now and then.
The above suggested list of acceptable common use non-English words would be an immense help.
Foreign language pet names aren't warnable unless foreign language is used to circumvent another rule
Such a list can't really be done, because context matters. It's more about context and less about vocabulary.
The fact that staff won't even post here but will gladly answer a ticket and use a user as their messenger is sus.
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This is so confusing. I understand that I can have a non-English named pet, but can I leash her so that she appears under my avatar in the forums? Currently it seems that context isn't being considered, and that any non-English in the forums gets a warning. Pet profiles can have non English, but can you link to that pet in the forums for profile building help? A firm unified rule or some serious clarification of the current rules is really needed.
I know staff is up to their armpits in alligators right now, what with real world issues and prepping for Morostide, so I understand that they can't deal with this issue right away, but it's something to keep on the to-do list.
Foreign pet names are allowed. You can leash them, you can nominate them for the spotlight, you can talk about them by names in the forums.
What is not allowed is to use foreign language to mask rule-breaking, even if it's just two words, and full-on conversations in public part of the site - Shoutbox, Forums and Profile Comments.
Ye they’re clearly aware we’re having this discussion, and one mod has already posted here.. to vaguely tell a user not to talk about xenophobia, which is absolutely a related topic.