There are like three threads right now spouting similar ideas, and I'm not sure which one to post to in order to voice my support! I ended up going with this one since it was created within the last six months and wasn't resurrected from the dead.

My thoughts:

• Though it's called genderless, I like to think of it as a third option, an "other" to the male/female binary currently offered. In my head, this can mean many different things. For example, my pet Southwest is genderless because they are a twofer pet with one side male and one side female. My pet Andhi is genderless because they are somewhat genderfluid in my head. But I can see genderless as also meaning agender or nonbinary.

• I think having 4+ options to diversify and clarify would be good, too, but I feel kind of nervous about asking too much of the powers that be. That's why I think one all-encompassing third option at the start would be good, and then later we can see how it goes and add more? Idk.

• Yes, there's the genderless berry but there's also the gender berry, and I don't remember which thread it was on but someone said (paraphrasing), "Why do the binary genders get to start off as one or the other, but even if you know you're creating a pet that will be genderless from the start, you don't have a choice but to pay for it?" You can always change your mind and change the gender; that's what the berries are for. But you should be able to do it right from the start.

• Also, I don't think this will cause an economic problem for the genderless berry. I remember when the gender berry was under 100k and it has shot up to 4m+ - and you can already make a pet with one or the other gender! There will always be people like me who adopt pets and then have to change them or who change their minds and decide to go in a different direction with a character.

I guess I'm somewhat echoing sentiments others have already expressed, but I had to gather them altogether for myself, at least. And maybe to give feedback and support too. C:

After a little bit of research, yes, NB does have its own flag (horizontal stripes of yellow, white, purple, black), but I feel like it would be kind of esoteric. Apparently, there is a relatively accepted gender symbol for NB and Genderqueer though, maybe that could be used? Or maybe just an asterisk like this , since the full gender symbol would be very difficult to fit into the current size of the icons now.

ohhh, i agree! (i updated the original post too ayy, just so it's a little clearer and reflects the thread so people don't have to scroll down to get a sense of the thread direction before replying lmao)

i dunno much about pet icons, but?? it sounds like such a great idea, honestly i think that it's kind of plausible for the genderless pet to not have an icon at all, and maybe for NB pets to use the current genderless icon (if. that makes sense).

but ayy this is just speculation!! someone should make a thread for this if it ever comes to it xD

whispers yes !! more options. i love the idea of a genderfluid berry, and honestly i just want more options for everything, having something like the NB option doesn't mean that we should stop at that, i guess that we should always be striving for improvement !! or, something.

where was this reply going my memory is so awful oh man.

ALSO AYY i updated the original post to reflect the motion of this thread huehuehuehuehuehue

Ohhh man. LMAO THANKS. xD Yess, this was created er. 2 hours ago I think. Or something close to that, so lmao this thread is as fresh as it gets.

Ahhh, to me, definitely, genderless comes off as 'not having a gender'. I read it as agender. It's why I kinda would like the 'Other' option to be available for pets as well? It's definitely possible to read it as other things though.

I did update the original post just now to reflect kinda the thread as it is, it's a lot more. Er. Clear?? I guess? Lmao!! I updated the post before reading your reply, but it definitely reflects a lot of the things you've written! :D Hugs friend lmao I also love your name, it's so................... poetic.

//cackles im so bad at puns //weeps im sorry

Huge, 100% support for this.

Nonbinary gender shouldn't be treated any differently from binary gender. Whatsoever. You shouldn't have to work for it or pay extra because it's "special"; it's an option just like any other gender. (The Steamwork Gear gender can remain as it is, imo, because it's a trinket from creating a Steamwork pet from scratch. It's a special nonbinary symbol for the dedicated people who think robots are neat.)

I definitely feel that "Genderless" should be replaced with "Nonbinary", myself. It's a broader label that can be interpreted more widely: two of my nb pets don't identify with any form of gender, but two of them identify with gender that is simply neither male nor female. Being nonbinary would fit all four of them, since that's what they all are, outside the gender binary.

It wouldn't affect the economy at all, imo; we have plenty of sP sinks, the current Gender Berry has shot up in price like a rocket + yet hasn't changed at all, and the only other lost profit would be off of past Genderless Berries that were bought or obtained. (And I've bought 4 of them, I'm not salty about losing the sP at all-- I just really want to have the option there.)

Simply.. with Subeta becoming more diverse and open about that diversity, it feels like it's about time this becomes a much more easily-accessed option. I don't want to be black and white about it, but a lot of the reasons against this are always things like "it's supposed to be special" or "it'll ruin the economy" or whatever, and it's... always felt like there's some lowkey prejudice underneath all that, you know? I wish more people could examine that and think about it a bit deeper.

whispers the only thing i can say to this is 100% yes

i agree !! i think that having more instead of less is defo better- keeping the genderless berry, and maybe getting a genderfluid berry is awesome, but at the very basis of that being agender and genderfluid fall under the non-binary umbrella- so it makes sense for us to have that option from the beginning ayy.

having the broad label and being able to further define identity through genderless/genderfluid items is great, and honestly the fact we already have the genderless berry makes me want the broad non-binary label ever more

(same same on everything though, honestly with issues like this it does get very black and white? you gotta be intolerant against intolerance, that old quote that's been floating around again.) (sometimes i kinda hope subeta is more liberal than that but there are always people :s. but ahhhh i'm super glad that everything on this thread has just been supportive so far!) (although it's not even been three hours, maybe things will change lmao !!)

So in reality you may be advocating for two different things:

1. Renaming "Genderless Berry" to "Nonbinary Berry".

• Since the Sex Berry was renamed the Gender Berry, I don't see why this couldn't happen. This actually would probably be a really easy change.

2. Having a nonbinary option upon creation.

Or am I misinterpreting this and you would like genderless and nonbinary to be two separate and complete options? Actually, thanks to your last post it does sound like you want two different options. C: (This is where I start to get nervous because it can open up a can of worms - where do we stop differentiating? Let's say we have Female, Male, Nonbinary and Genderless - someone also wants Genderfluid. What about transgender - what if someone wants to show that their pet is in the middle of the transition? And if it becomes too complicated, the people who can make the change are more likely to say no - or ignore it - and keep it the way it is just because that's simpler. Then again, I may just be projecting my experiences elsewhere on to Subeta.)

:') yep! two different things :D. So for me, I'm always in favour of more representation and not less- I'm mobile again so I can format a long reply (I will get back to you later with a big essay lmao) but in short;

I'm always in favour of more representation. So. We can always have more inclusivity; if there's an idea to make something, then we can figure out how to make it happen. Like the genderfluid berry idea. For me, the NB label is kinda a beginning? To get it would be great, and we'd have the opportunity to strive for more. I'm so incoherent lmao

I defo get the experiences thing though ahh. I have better hopes for Subeta though!

I think both ideas work-- just replace Genderless with Nonbinary, change the berry to match, and make it an option upon pet creation. More emphasis on the latter because it'd be really frickin great + why should an option that should be there from the start cost an extra 10m pricetag? Potions are expensive enough already! ; _; (Two of my nb pets are Angelic, too. I've put so much money into Genocidal and Star Dream, lmao. Maybe it's not ironic that Star Dream's story has themes of the horrors of capitalism? :p)

Transgender characters' gender tend to be up to the author, I've found, and they can use whatever gender they want to represent whatever identity or point in time they're referencing.

My Clubhooked presents and identifies as female overall -- even if her life otherwise will be referenced in her eventual story, since it is a pivotal reason as to why she doesn't live with her birth family -- so she's female. And I could make Sariel nonbinary if I wished, since she's completely comfortable with neutral pronouns and appearance, but on her own whims, she errs more towards female, so she uses that gender on here.

It does get a little weird with overlapping identities and transitioning identities, but I think that the less specific "Nonbinary" gender would make for a lot more options. And there's always possibilities beyond that!

(I for one really like the asterisk idea, too. The current icon is pretty okay, but an asterisk is a universal "fill in the blank" idea.)

I feel like the complications of gender could be simplified in the following way:

At pet creation, you have the options of Male, Female, and Non-Binary (or perhaps Other)

Or, you can purchase the Genderless Berry to make your pet genderless as it already is.

Or, you can purchase the Gender Berry, and it would have extra options added, so instead of only letting you choose between Male and Female, it would also allow you to choose Trans, Bigender, and Genderfluid? (those seem to be the most wanted genders atm)

Or, they could create a third, new berry, that would allow those other options instead and call it, like, Genderfull Berry.

ahh yes! You explain it better than I ever could lmao

That's what I'm trying to go for really- like er, I'm too incoherent most of the time I guess I get lost in the translation from brain to english lmao

But y e s. Like? I'd really like to keep the genderless berry, the nb option shouldn't affect it? For me, anyway. Like more inclusivity, but inclusivity should never have a cost? Like genderless/agender should still be there, ahh

Yikes imma go home in two hours and compose a better (computer) reply lmao

yes! i hugely agree ahhh

also sariel im yellin' i have a pet called sarael cuz i missed sariel i think at name creation. fallen angel type :3

[edit] whoops, i'm slow! pls disregard anything that's already been covered while i catch up

this certainly doesn't speak for everyone, but in re:"What about transgender - what if someone wants to show that their pet is in the middle of the transition?" i believe someone on the genderfluid berry topic mentioned that they wanted a genderfluid icon specifically for their pet who was trans and who's story involved their transition (and the pet in question was currently genderless, which does not fit). so i suppose on some level, that would be covered by a genderfluid option, and most other pets would already be using the gender they present as?

and in re/ too much differentiation- i don't see the harm in having a wider range of options, though it does run the risk of both appearing to be redundant and not covering everything that people want covered. i guess it's like how people didn't want the glitched no-gender zentus to be an official option, because it was similar to -- but not the same as -- being genderless.

& an interlude for my own sake because i was getting confused about who's suggesting what

• right now, we have male, female, genderless icons, and we have gender / genderless berries * this thread asks for the genderless icon to be available as a default choice * this thread asks to have no gender icon as an option (confusing thread name, though) * this thread asks for genderfluid as a new icon and berry
• the thread we're in right now is asking for an additional icon (non-binary) and for it to be available as a default choice, in addition to a berry of its' own?

i certainly won't argue against inclusiveness! & i guess i'm just curious at this point -- what would the berry be called, and what would it say under pets using this option in the adoption center? just the "non-binary berry" and "other?"

I'm just following along and have nothing further to add, except the gender berry currently doesn't give you an option, per se. It simply switches the gender. So if your pet is female, you select the "Change Gender: Pet Name" option, and it says "Your pet is now male!" So the berry would have to be redone to have it work the way you suggest. I also like the idea of a "Genderfull Berry". C:

Ah, I wasn't aware of that, I've never actually used a Gender Berry. What happens if you use one on a genderless pet then? Does it just pick a gender at random?

I'm not sure. According to this old thread, it changes the pet male first, and if your goal was female you'd have to use two berries. But that is from five years ago, back when it was still called a Sex Berry, so I don't know if that was changed or not.

How about something on the following lines?

1. Get rid of icons on pet profiles and use the relevant words instead ie AAA the male Feli, BBB the female Ghostly, CCC the genderless Ghostly etc. etc.

2. When creating a pet, people have the choice between male, female, genderless etc. etc.

3. Put the Gender Berry in the Millionaire Center so it has a set price like the Genderless Berry.

4. Create a third berry giving all the other options - let users choose the options and the name of the berry in a staff topic.

5. Once the new system is introduced, everyone can change one male, female or genderless pet to one of the new options for free if they want to.

6. If users adopt a pet they can use one of the berries if they want to.

PS: I'm trying to think of an all inclusive system because male, female, genderless and a vague 'other' which could mean anything wouldn't really represent people who don't identify as male, female or genderless.

aesthetically, i would not be interested in replacing the icons with text. i have several profiles that rely on the "the glade tigrean" or whatever being short for positioning reasons; "the female glade tigrean" would be too long. also i don't really get how that would look on the main pet page?

there is another thread requesting a genderfluid berry, also. male, female, genderless, non-binary, and genderfluid may not cover the whole spectrum but i would hope it covers enough that people are satisfied with the range. (i like the idea of having one berry that covers all the additional options, but i think having separate ones is better for utility reasons; if it only does one thing, it'd keep people from selecting the wrong option on a dropdown list and having to buy multiple.)

other than that, i like the idea having the full set of berries available in the millionaire center (though i think the gender berry isn't there 'cause it restocks in seedlings or something?)

There's currently two ways of getting a Gender Berry. SubetaLodge says it restocks in the Food Market and Shop Search says "This item can be found in these locations: Token Shop (not available right now!)"

Just thought of a possible way round your objection concerning pet profiles. How about something on these lines using one of my pets as an example?

Carnage The Nightmare Telenine ( no icon) Orientation: Male Owner: Ciannwn Born: October 20th, 2004 Adopted: October 20th, 2004 (Legacy)

A pet's orientation would just be an extra line in an existing list so it probably wouldn't interfere with positioning.

I like the idea of having a separate line for gender. (I don't think orientation is the right word there, though, since that usually refers to "sexual orientation" as in who you're attracted to. I suppose you could say "gender orientation" but "gender identity" is more accurate.)

The problem is that making it its own line could mean that it can be taken off pets' profiles, depending on how it is coded. This would run contrary to current site rules:

So if it went that way, they'd either have to code it so that it couldn't be removed, or change the site rules so that you can remove the gender if you want.

An extra line for gender definition seems like it'd be a bit clunky to me, and it'd require a lot of pet profile re-structuring and space-making -- I'm not terribly fond of the idea since that extra line would have to be manually placed and fiddled with. I don't need more required content to juggle around when we've already got name, owner, pet-species-gender and other details. For length issues, just make new icons for new options instead of writing it out-- it shouldn't be hard.

I do like the idea of merging the gender berry into a single item with a dropdown list, though. Female, Male, Genderless, Nonbinary and Genderfluid all seem like reasonable options to have-- and to be honest, if people aren't going to pay close and careful attention with important drop-down decisions like that, that's their own problem?

I feel that Male, Female, Genderless & Nonbinary, and maybe Genderfluid too, could be a wide enough representation. That includes 1. the binary genders, 2. a lack of gender, 3. a gender identity that doesn't fall into either of those, and then 4. a gender identity that constitutes two or more of the above. I'm sure there's more specific options that could also be specified, but by definition alone I think that covers a pretty wide spectrum!

that would actually make it worse -- when i say it would mess with positioning on some of my profiles, i don't mean the default column. i mean profiles like eriqua's where that line (the female glacier popoko) fits exactly under the first half of her name. having to find a spot for a fourth line would just be a huge pain.

edit - also this is kind of veering off topic for akito's suggestion. i'm happy to continue discussing alternatives, but that should probably be in its own thread o: