To be fair, Kumos is meant to be an ongoing, more-or-less public work in progress. It's rough because Keith wants players to test and provide feedback for its features as it's worked on. I think that's a step forwards of sorts, since we don't get progress updates for similarly ambitious projects, and have no idea how close it is to completion. Kumos appears to change a lot of how the site works with the homesteading feature and what we can do with our pets, so I think the goal is to get insights on what users are doing, what we think of those features, etc. so that if something isn't quite right, the Subeta team can reconsider what they're spending their time on. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

And, tbh, I don't really think that it's necessary for users to get detailed progress updates on every site feature--some things are best left a surprise, plus it probably makes more sense for staff to focus on building the feature rather than communicating every little aspect that's being worked on. I wouldn't be opposed to confirmations that some project is still being worked on, or if it's being abandoned, just to kind of know what to expect as the site chugs along.

That said, I agree that having three separate sites is pretty confusing and sketchy for new users. I don't get on Kumos all that often, but New is required to access the wardrobe, which is one of the bigger draws of the site. It's also admittedly tricky for staff to balance less-exciting changes (e.g. streamlining the site and repairing existing features) with new stuff to keep current users engaged. Speaking individually, I wouldn't mind a moratorium of sorts on big features so that staff can focus on fixing and streamlining the existing site structure, but I understand why that would be a risky endeavor, too.

One of my biggest worries about having three sites is that we have one part-time programmer being pulled across all three of them. I don't know if Kumos has any big problems at the moment, but there are issues with the other two. I get worried that a new feature being built over there (like the homestead) is a feature on this site that is getting left behind and is stuck half-functioning because of archaic coding.

Having one functional website that has the coding structure for Keith to actually do things with has never looked more impossible despite whatever he says otherwise.

I think those are absolutely fair concerns, and I admit that when Kumos was announced, I was optimistic, but had those same thoughts. I still think having this sort of open beta project is interesting and could be really successful, but wish we had even just one more person to help out with coding and such.

I'll be honest, I was gonna post this as a joke reply but ngl the more I think about it the more I can't really believe it wasn't done this way to alleviate even the slightest bit of pushback against the kumos site, (which I've avoided like heck because, even if it wasn't meant to, from this oldie's perspective, it really, really felt like a dumbstruck "are you kidding me? the whole site is burning and it's because all the work was put into a third hecking site with A Totally Brand New Feature UwU(TM) instead?")

literally all they had to do was call that new crafting thing The Teahouse and people would have thrown a party lmao.

Anyway I'm still not sure why the patreon/etc thing to support another part-time programmer (or even just the site in general, though for the past several years and even more with Bug gone and Keith getting sick imo it's become clear the site needs another back-end person, even if just on the weekends or events) never happened, especially now with the paypal issue cutting off non-US users from premium currency and supporting the site entirely. maybe i just missed the reasoning? I know apple/google take a big cut (like 30% iirc?) out of purchases, but I'm not sure about other sites' fee structures.

I don't get the Kumos site nor do I care about crafting. It feels like jumping on a current trend that will eventually fade out when people have played enough of them and get sick of it.

Overall I feel weird about a paper doll and pet sim turning into warcraft followers and garrisons.

I.... Honestly didn't even know there was more to the Kumos site than security stuff until I read these posts.

Actually sounds rad, ngl, Ill have to go look. But something might have gone wrong with the communication if I didn't know that. Maybe I missed it, or maybe its that missable.

But what I always thought would be a killer advertisement for the site would be to make some paper doll avatar apps that allowed you to to use the dressing rooms conveniently on your phone, with no immediate idea of what Subeta was.

And then, to access the full thing/CWs/skins/etc, you'd have to create an account and earn them in Subeta. The CWs especially should get the creators CSCs if they're used, at the very least.

The art assets have the strength to stand on their own, and paper doll tools are fun.

i mean, i don't think there's any reason to think the crafting/homestead feature is representative of a "new direction" for the site or anything more than an example of a feature that can be built up and iterated upon with the new codebase. however i agree with uhhh not really being a fan of it (i like crafting systems in other types of games, and i don't mind subeta's existing ones like alchemy and baking, but i just can't see this particular one ever being fun or enjoyable even with all the tweaks and optimizations in the world...) and would much prefer the time and work be put toward things that will actually benefit the future of the site.

like, i get wanting to take the need to rebuild so much from scratch as an opportunity to drastically rethink & overhaul fundamental aspects of subeta's design, functionality, and gameplay elements... but at the end of the day i don't think that's really what anyone wants. sure things have to change over time, but i think it's possible to improve upon things without tossing out all the specifics of this site that have been built up over the years. sometimes things look or work a certain way for a reason, and changing them just for the sake of being new and different will only hurt user experience in the long run.

but anyway, that's kind of tangential to the original discussion soooo... shrug

it would be nice to have more ways to earn csc. especially with the paypal thing going on for international users.

i would like to see us being able to decorate homes and display them to other users but that might take a lot of work to implement.

if we can have something like Neopet's omlette that would be nice. i like grabbing pieces of food from something gigantic. i think it would be fun for other users as well.

I know I'm more or less alone in this, but I want my pets to be pets, not people, not villagers, and not followers.

no, actually I'm with you on that one. like, if I want to play furvilla or lorwolf or CotL, I'll go play furvilla or lorwolf or CotL. if I'm on subeta my aim is to play subeta, I don't need my pets to build their own shelter in the wilderness mobile-game style.

anyway, I fear we're getting off topic and mods seem very quick to lock topics for that despite the forums already being dead enough (which is. not the best look to have half the first page of a forum be entirely locked threads - hey look, a segue!)

more to the point of attracting new users though, to tie into your point, it's extremely unlikely a very bare-bones attempt to recreate sites that are already successful in their niche is gonna bring in many, if any, new users because, as I said before, if I want to play Subeta-But-Entirely-Time-Based-Crafting I'll just go to furvilla.

I'm shocked there's not more marketing, or fundraising, or even anything just remotely hyping the site up that I can see. until literally a few days ago, the official tumblr had neither made nor reblogged a single post for a full year, and that was a single fanart reblog. except to post about the kumos login bug there hadn't been activity on their facebook since February. twitter has been the most active it looks like, with a few posts a month.

why not host a little community engagement contest (I believe someone mentioned a baking contest, imo that would work great for survival especially! or a sculpting thing, other physical medias work well both to let the non-digital artists get a chance to show off but also because it usually means less entries to judge, lol, ask me how I know) and have the winning entries go up on the socials as a "hey look at this cool shit our users have made! wanna come join the site it's inspired by?" like wajas is doing nowadays? or heck, just flat out try one of the social media minigames they've done ala crossword with site-specific terms (which also drives engagement to parts of the site not many people traffic, as well as a whole "dang, according to this trivia thing this site had an entire official lesbian marriage plot? sign me the heck up" type of new user interested in the vast amount of lore and such the site has built up over almost two decades. (also "hell yes zombie valentines holiday" is absolutely a hook for new users I gotta say. sell that individuality and uniqueness to people! steampunk masquerade where you dress up your dancer with any thousands of possible items! even just showing off more of the pet art - twitter seems to post new releases but how about a "know what's awesome about Halloween on here? so many kickass spooky pets!" and show off some of the beloved nightmare or bloodred or graveyard pet art. there's so many amazing works of literal art that have gone into the pets here, and little to no one outside the site would ever know it exists. just. y'all have so many assets to draw people in already, you just need to like. actually show them off.)

(hopefully this is legible, I'm running on no sleep atm but felt i needed to post this)

Neopets is making an attempt to return, they're engaging on SM, they're doing AMAs, [they're doing something with UCs] I wouldn't expect nearly that much from Subeta, mainly because the security posture is apparently better, even across 3 sites, and "Hey, our pets aren't ugly anymore if you pay money!" doesn't work here when the pets were always dynamic.

There's just not a ton to do compared to Neo, and what there is isn't advertised, like what said.

You can schedule tweets and tumblr posts! Take 2 hours and do that. Do it with the art and time it for dates in the year. Even for things where you don't quite know when Vesnali or Masq will start, isn't it easier to log in once a month to post about it when the rest is automated? We'll at least see the attempt being made when we're back with a similar topic in the next 4 months.

Well, for one, the games on here aren't actually that bad, but they really need to update the SP values and mobile controls for them.

Even if they didn't set some full new UI for the newer games, just a way to get the mobile on screen keyboard to pop up and stay up (along with mapping) would probably work for most, right?

I recently played Mazes and Mahars, and that's actually a lot of fun! But I had forgotten, because its so much effort, when ai can spend literally three seconds and earn thrice as much with Sagittarius. As is, unless you're going for achievements, the SP values are basically a deterrent. IIRC the staff have stated that they just want people to play the games for fun, but let's be real here, that's just not how gameplay loops for website games like this work.

The state of Neopets games right now really isn't that great, because most are straight up broken, and a lot of them don't reward points like they should if you have to use roundabout flash support options.

Subeta isn't really "Losing" on that front as much as one might think. They definitely have an edge, but it is a shadow of the digital arcade it once was. (Which I'm honestly pretty heartbroken over. I like Subeta more, but still. It hurts to see Neopets limp along like this for years and years and years)

Haha, what communication? Honestly if I could wave a magic wand and add anything to the site immediately, besides just a full-time programmer, it would be some kind of project manager who knows how to set reasonable goals, organize projects and set timelines, communicate these with users... based purely on the information I can find and my understanding of the site, Keith is godawful at project management and setting realistic goals. I'm thankful for such a dedicated and commited site owner because I'm sure plenty of people would have shut Subeta down years ago, and I really do love this site, but he definitely needs some kind of level-headed support if we want to see any actual results. I had a wee little tiny itsy bitsy moment of rage seeing the homestead stuff on the new kumos site. Isn't the point to rebuild? Unmash the decades of coding spread across the site? Instead you're just working on a brand new feature nobody asked for or expected? And there is no way for users to see if any kind of progress for anything is being made. No timelines, no roadmaps. It's randomly spread over many many pages and there's no end goal, just bullet lists of things Keith has kind of started or just thought about, or things he thinks might be a good idea in the nebulous future. The kumos forums might as well be a mindmap of random ideas and concepts posted as they come to Keith's mind and immediately forgotten.

Anyway, my "on-topic" suggestion is to let regular site items be sold in user shops for CSC! Let me sell old holiday items for like 5-10 CSC. That would make a little improvement on how it's hard to obtain the stuff for users who don't put money into the site.

Edited to add: It looks like OP's original thread actually predates Subeta V2 by a year? That in and of itself is funny. Subeta V2 that still has its own suggestions forum, and is now (I guess?) made obsolete (except the parts of the site that only run on V2 like the cash shop, wardrobe and CW market) by Project Kumos, which does nothing (except you need to log in through Kumos to access the original site, or something?). How well have V2 and Project Kumos helped new player retention? Was V2 a success? What about it has warranted Kumos to exist? And what is the justification for Homesteads and other new projects like crafting that have popped up over there?

I like this idea a lot!

I think there's a lot of fair discussion about the priorities of the site. As someone who has been here for a very long time, the addition of multiple sites and the odd quiet that I often find on Subeta V1 makes me nervous that one day I'm going to come try to login and poof, the site I've loved for over a decade will be gone. (sobs in overattached about my pets).

I would be very open to hearing ideas from staff on how to monetize the site so additional help can be hired! It's worth investigating so things can get updated, smoothed out, patched up, revamped, and consolidated into one bustling and engaging site again.

I love the idea of community plots! I wouldn't even care if it was 80% recycled to save time on code stuff. Just something engaging to get people participating and communicating daily.

I think incentivizing the forums more would be lovely as well. This could tie into the idea of more CSC on-site without spending IRL funds by varying Forum Points with Morty Cards (or something similar) when making posts. Having a pinned continual staff / mod run "contest" on certain forums would be fun too! Or raffle if a contest would be too consuming since there's the expectation of someone "judging". I'm thinking themed HA contests for different months / seasons with a prize like CW voucher and SBQ Invites as randomly handed out participation items. And then tailor what kind to specific forums? Increasing the value of prize for forum participation as far as achievements go could be an option also? Like maybe more tiers, or specific to the category achievements? Like "Welcome New Users" - Post x number of times in the welcome forums. The goal of course would be to find ways to create meaningful interaction not spamming, but I think getting people there at all is a good start.

Events are great but that's too much to ask of the current staff, I think. Unless you could assemble a "volunteer" event force (I believe most mods are volunteers already? But this would be even more minor and just for community events) that only utilizes the forums where they don't have any powers to give items but could have very minimal modding privileges in a particular forum? And then after all the scores or whatever are tallied then actual mods could distribute things over a few days/week.

Or maybe incentivize guilds better. Back in the day guilds were very elitist..that's not necessarily a bad thing, if it can encourage a healthy rivalry.

A welcome wagon sounds great.

I did not even know Kumos was a thing. It seems promising but yes, it's the third website now? Whatever you all decide to do just don't mess with restocking, please..it's my favorite part of the site.

I dunno. I'm going to try to play more consistently and make sure I post at least something on the forum every day. As many gripes as I have with the site, it's got the best aesthetic, best pets, and best items of any pet site now.