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I think it's important to remove or edit content on Subeta that is racist and offensive.

I also really enjoy the content that includes diversity and culture by celebrating it on this site. The world cuisine items from Alegarten, the Peka-Boo food trucks, and Shengui Guo are some of my favorites. I can only speak for myself but as a Korean-American I love seeing things like , , and and wish there was more of this kind of content.

Regarding the particular items I brought up (the Ganesha costume), I'll again reiterate that I'm not objecting to it based on religious reasons of my own. I do know, however, that Ganesha is a meaningful deity for Hindu people and that dressing up as deities is not done outside of certain, specific contexts that don't seem to include dressing up an avatar on a pet site. On the subject of dressing up as Hindu deities, there's plenty about it. Just look up, for example, the responses to Heidi Klum dressing up as Kali one Halloween. There's also a lot that's been written about cultural appropriation more broadly, including insensitive merchandise of Hindu deities and symbols. Again, you don't have to take my word for it and just doing some simple Googling will lead you to more information about it, written from various different sides of the political spectrum.

I also don't think it's fair to say that someone who isn't Hindu can't feel like these items are insensitive. The truth is -- as has been repeatedly pointed out in this thread -- that there's a very long history of white people trivializing or taking over various aspects of South Asian cultures for profit or "coolness". These items are just one more thing of a long line of it that does affect people.

I would take this same stance over items that disrespected Islam or Sikhism. These are not races, they are religions, but they are religions that many people who -- what a coincidence! -- look just like me and come from the same geographical region practice. When white racism affects them, it affects all of us by association because it's one more step in a pattern of white people treating us poorly while also treating the rich and diverse cultures we have as props. It speaks volumes about how we're perceived and the respect people think we deserve. It's part of a long history of people acting like we're "exotic", as though anything outside of their own experience isn't just someone else's life. I may not be Hindu, but Hinduism is definitely a part of my culture of origin and has shaped our/my history, as well as being part of how we're perceived in the West. I've literally had white people mock me using Hinduism as a basis, which isn't just disrespectful to Hinduism, it's also messed up on so many levels.

If I don't have the "authority" to discuss these items, neither do white people on here.

We've had relatively few PoC chime in about items they personally find insensitive and I'm not surprised. It's hard to have a discussion when white users feel like dictating the terms of how we can discuss it and whether the things we say meet their personal standards for acceptability or otherwise. Like I said before, if any Hindu users show up I'll be glad to refer to them (while keeping in mind that no group is a monolith) but by this point that seems kind of unlikely.

I'm going to take a step back from this thread for a bit. I'm tired of trying to explain the same thing over and over. I'm tired of some white people who try to be center of conversations, even on a site where I'm supposed to be able to engage in some fun escapism. If I don't reply, it's not because I feel like I'm "wrong", it's just that this conversation feels increasingly pointless. My intention was to give PoC a space to talk about our perspectives and figure out how Subeta could actively make this a better space for us, not to have to explain my whole life history or the dynamics of South Asian communities. And definitely not to get accused of having some kind of pro-Hindutva agenda.

Regarding the original post, I don't find the specific examples racist, but I do wonder why they're in the cash shop and if they couldn't be more Subeta-themed.

Somewhat more relevant to me is the stuff that's related to Eastern Asian culture. I quite like those themes and seeing references to cultural events/practices/items are nice. I haven't seen any items that overstep boundaries or come across as racist, but again, this could just be my lack of knowledge (of Subeta items and of cultural significance/importance).

Just to answer your question, they are in the cash shop because they are part of a whole costume trunk back when those were a thing.

This is so important:

Something I've found doesn't go over well with white people (and before anyone accuses me of being "racist against white people," I'm white too) is the idea that just because we might not be doing something maliciously, doesn't mean it is without negative impact. Impact vs. intent. (Although, once presented with the truth, if someone chooses to keep doing the thing that hurts people.. can't say that's not malicious anymore.)

To add to the list of items that need editing, this item and its description deffffinitely make the cut: "Honor the true spirit of Thanksgiving with this festive traditional headdress!"

The "true spirit of Thanksgiving" is a lie. The US was founded on genocide and built with slavery, both of which continue into modern day. Also, this item feeds off of the myth that Indigenous cultures are just one big monolith with interchangeable traditions and fashions. Did/do any of the tribes that had unfortunate first contact with the colonial invaders even wear feather headdresses? A few important things for the artists&staff to consider when figuring out what to do about this item.

I hope subeta doesn't get rid of all the old cultural items, because I'm really into collecting them for my gallery :(

This person's work of photographing scenes where a person is dressed up as a Hindu deity in order to recreate religious iconography as art photographs is very interesting and may give some insight into at least one Hindu person's concept of how dressing up as / creating art depicting Hindu deities might be part of a recreation of worship for some.

https://www.manjarisharma.com/darshan-1

HAs are not exactly dressing up and they are not exactly creating art but they partake of both those things, and this seems like it has multiple parallels even if greatly removed from the Subeta situation.

Um, you're speaking as though other religions and Christianity were all equal in terms of privilege and power.

Christian privilege is heavily woven into the fabric of our society. In order to be anti-racist when dealing with artefacts and imagery from non-Christian religions it is absolutely necessary to set Christian perspectives aside because they have been dominant for hundreds of years. It's very telling that Asian societies which refused to allow, or which heavily limited, the activities of Christian missionaries are generally the cultures that resisted colonialisation most effectively.

One of the things that most irritates me is when people play up the Christian-like aspects of Luminaire; as a non-Christian I wouldn't really feel comfortable with Luminaire if I thought it were actually Christmas.

Geisha and ninja costume items are pretty iffy.

Destiny mentioned on page 1 we aren’t supposed to be responding to individuals.

I don’t understand how anyone will learn that their opinions are harmful if we aren’t allowed to respond to them directly. Something I’ve never understood about this site. Sure, staff wants to keep the peace and all that, but sometimes “keeping the peace” only helps the oppressor. As evidenced by someone genuinely being able to come into this thread and accuse OP of nationalism and not get more than a general y’all shouldn’t respond to each other that they weren’t even pinged in.

I agree with on both things. The rule about not responding to individuals makes it harder to have a conversation. If it really needs to be a thing, it would be really helpful if the mods themselves could step in to contain derails, do something when people are being insulted, and even, yes, provide the often basic-level education.

The headdress strikes me as pretty bad and I don't think you need to be Native American to see how it could be harmful. I'm not even American at all but I know about how Thanksgiving is criticised for its stance about Native Americans, and how headdresses like this are often a stereotype and/or misused.

I've been thinking and maybe a relatively safe way to honour other cultures -- if that's what people really want and if it matters so much to them to have real-life cultures in a fictional setting -- would be food. Barring certain instances that are pretty "real life" ones, appreciating food is usually not cultural appropriation or offensive, most foods should be safe to include, etc. Maybe there could even be achievements related to this or (and I know this is unlikely, since there's a lot on the staff's plates) a mini-game similar to baking where you put together ingredients to learn more about these dishes, etc. That's just a random idea I'm throwing around, I'm not dead set or it or anything.

Well, that reply was sufficiently ironic that nobody here is in any danger of getting anemia any time soon. I always thought "respond to the topic, not to people" meant not to start fights, which I definitely do not want to do.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be Japanese-style clothing items on the site. People actually wore and still wear kimono, yukata, and other traditional Japanese clothing. Wa-lolita clothing (short kimono dresses) are also worn by ordinary people in Japanese society today. Yumetenbou/DreamV has been known to sell Disney princess yukatas to Japanese girls for summer wear.

Historical clothing and modern-day items do not have sacred connotations like the head of Ganesh or the feathered warbonnet.

But "geisha costumes" are offensive; while real geishas were highly trained artists and entertainers, the western image of a "geisha" is a fetishised and heavily sexualised portrayal of an Asian woman.

Ninja costumes and the term "kunoichi" are not historically accurate, but they come from recent Japanese literature and popular culture. However, the word "kunoichi" is also used to refer to a heavily fetishised image of an Asian woman, and it was absolutely not a term used historically for a female shinobi.

Also, please get rid of the word "Oriental" in the descriptions of costume trunk items depicting Chinese and Japanese clothing. That is also very offensive.

I'm going to respond to the original post.

I think that more items that relate to real-life cultures could maybe be more analogous to some Subetan lands. Obviously these fictional lands shouldn't be stand-ins for certain cultures but hopefully these items can be used to also build a lore for those lands.

I was actually really glad for the introduction of Shengui Guo, because we could see more items that would be non- Anglo Saxon inspired. Yes a move of revamping the Ganesha/and other Hindu deity items into Shengui Guo inspired items would make much more sense to me.

I don't know how the artists of Subeta identify, but if there is art/stories that they want to portray they could invite users to consult (yes I'm volunteering myself lol). This is common practice for books, they have people go over it to ensure that the depictions feel authentic.

Happened upon this thread so I thought I'd say something since it concerns me.

I'm actually Hindu and honest to God I never once felt offended by these items. I actually thought it was neat to see something from my religion on Subeta. Like I remember when I joined the site years ago and saw that Laxmi/Ganesh set and other things like: etc, the first thing I did was show my sister (also Hindu like the rest of my family) and I remember her thinking it was so cool to see a representation of our culture on a pet site because honestly, it doesn't happen very often. And it was part of the reason why I got hooked on Subeta; I felt included somehow. Just my two cents.

[edit]

Thank you! ^-^

It is my belief that people in general want to see and learn about things they don't know, and be introduced to lives, artifacts and cultures that see the world is a different way that they do. There is nothing disrespectful in this. I think @Cresenta expressed it beautifully. (Loving the avatar, by the way).

I think items like diyas and saris would be somewhat different from the other items. That and I hope nobody's implying that saris are exclusive to Hindus because that would be weird.

I agree with 's points. I think some items have certain connotations that are important to keep in mind, especially if they're coming from a Western perspective (like pop culture's image of what geishas are).

I see some white people stopping by to say they like to collect items from "different cultures". This is completely missing the point of this thread. This is not about what you like or don't like, to put it bluntly, and if you're honest about wanting to learn more about other cultures there's plenty you can do that isn't based on white people's stereotypes.

I was thinking a lot about possible solutions and I came up with a few that I wanted to run by any users who are personally affected by the items:

• Well-researched change of item names and descriptions, if the item art isn’t an issue
• For item art that is the issue, have the site artists research&redraw items OR
• Open call for users to submit well-researched redraws of the stereotypical items that are historically&culturally accurate (with the number of CW artists onsite this would probably be a popular option)
• If the item has an irreversible issue, perhaps add a note to the item descriptions like Disney+ has done that says something like, “This item was based on racial stereotypes.”

I don’t think any of the items are likely to be taken off completely, so offering ideas on how to revamp is probably the best bet. Again would like to say since I’m white this isn’t my place to say what the correct action is, these are just some ideas I’ve been brainstorming in case they sound good to anyone! :3

I guess my question to you is what do you think about your original comments now that someone who is Hindu dropped by to say that they don't think its inherently offensive and actually made them feel included?

To me it wasn't obvious if someone would find that offensive or not, since many religions handle that kind of thing differently. For example, Islam forbids creating or displaying images of the prophet. Where Christianity does that stuff all the time, and is relatively tolerant of it, as long as its done tastefully. Me personally, if someone made an avatar that was supposed to be God I would be fine. If they made an avatar of God smoking a bong, I would be slightly annoyed by it (but some people would be furious i'm sure).

I wasn't sure where Hinduism was on that spectrum, although reading articles the other day the gestalt that I got was that it leaned more towards the tolerant end of the spectrum.

I don't think that the site creating/maintaining the items on the site is inherently racist or offensive. I think it depends much more on what users do with the items, unless the culture expressly forbids it like the case of Islam.

I thought we weren't supposed to reply to individual comments, but since a question has been directed to me specifically...

My position is the same! They didn't address the Ganesha items and instead mentioned items that aren't necessarily an issue. Personally, I'd love to see saris in more colours. :) Though I'd be concerned about white people misrepresting or misusing them.

I've also been making an effort to ask Hindu people I know, and as far as I can see, the Ganesha items are not ok to them. If enough people want, I can ask and see if I can post multiple comments/opinions here. Since, you know, PoC are not a monolith, no matter what might be comforting for you to think. What I initially said about the history of white people with South Asian cultures, I still stand by 100%.

Good for you that you wouldn't find an item of God smoking a joint to be offensive. I wouldn't care either. But then, I didn't initiate this discussion to be solely about religion but about whether Subeta's items are or are not an issue when it comes to being culturally sensitive. Christianity does not have the same history of being exploited in a colonial and neo-colonial context that many other religions have, nor are Christians discriminated against in the West. Further, it's not just about "displaying images" but who's doing it, why, and what the context is.

My stance about other items -- since, you know, this thread wasn't solely about the two items I named in my first post and I've made it clear from the start -- is still the same. Things like that ridiculous warbonnet with a description about "the spirit of Thanksgiving" are just gross. You can say whatever you want but if you're white, I don't actually care about your hot take.