then why don't you go here and just don't enter any keywords and all layers? Then you can browse 91 pages one after the other to your heart's content?

Or does that page show differently if you "follow" certain shops? Or are you wanting to look at items you can't buy? Or is there some other issue with that page I'm not aware of?

It's more of a strange reflex that I somehow just expect it on the feed page itself instead of having to search for it. I scroll down and there's just nothing more, and feels very strange to me for some reason. That's the 'itch' part.

And either way, the order feels off. I see new items after the ones I feel like I seen before and I go to the page at least once a day now.

Although, the way all the numbers show up with all players and no keywords could really use a next, previous, or a fill in page number because if I have to click on a small number on mobile, I'm going to click on the wrong one.

yeah. The page also needs better navigation to get to it in the first place. I wanted a page like that forever, yet never even knew it existed until recently.

As for the order, it seems to be from newest to oldest, as far as I can tell. I'm wondering if maybe the "familiar" items you see are recolors? Also the newest release page is the one that seems to be off - it's more random. I compared the browse/search page to the new release page to the SubetaLodge list (sorted by newest to oldest). The newest release page has a lot of gaps, doesn't list all available items. while the browse/search page does seem to list all items available for purchase in CW shops.

I'd definitely like a lot more clarity on exactly what these pages are displaying. LOL I'd like a lot more clarity with respect to CWs in general.

Yeah, the newest release page is the one I was talking about with regards to bring off. That one I check more than once a day sometimes and I see sweaters that I saw yesterday sit before something I never saw before. I dunno, it's weird.

Thanks for the ping. Sorry I quit replying on the other thread but I lost a close family member and am only coming here as needed to check pings and make sure I don't owe payments etc right now mostly. I very much appreciate that you've made this thread on a public forum ❤️

That said, I have support for most of the things in the first post, but not for anything in the "Item Availability" section.

Revoke Batch Limits Rule: Batch Limit Rules were put into place for valid reasons. NOBODY is forced to set a batch limit at any time unless THEY state publicly (on any forum, in reply to comments/sMails, on their discord server etc) that they'll have a batch limit. Same for private restrictions. If you don't say anywhere that it will be private, you're not beholden to keep it that way. Be responsible for yourselves on that folks. If you don't want to limit your items, you don't have to. The Guides that are linked in CW Discussion all also say this. People (and I've literally only seen a couple as well) who don't know it's not mandatory to state one would be better served by the site having a more comprehensive explanation for how CWs work which is already a suggestion. People absolutely abused things before the rule was put into place and scammed others. There's a reason for the rule, it doesn't need to be removed, people just need to have a better understanding of them by having a more central, site supplied source.

Allow sold out or old CWs to come back after X amount of time: Nope - this will 100% lead to scamming. Same reason you couldn't say "this item is going to be retired" and then bring it back before you were able to force retire items that hadn't sold out (or that had been set to unlimited). If someone says "I'm retiring X on this date" and then gets to bring it back, it's going to lead to folks who maybe would've waited to buy or what not (or who buy second-hand later for more) to get super ticked. Whatever your feelings about privates/limiteds/reselling - it's not cool to say this is not coming back ever and then bring it back - that's scamming pure and simple. If you released something that you wish you hadn't made private/hadn't limited...make/have a recolor made that's similar to the original and make that one unlimited.

Force newly submitted CWs to have a minimum number of public copies: As has already been discussed over and over - this will literally drive tons of people away from the market. Forcing them to make items they've paid to commission (or that they've spent hours making themselves) public will mean that people will stop bothering to submit items. Quite a lot of people make items for personal use/TCs/friends/etc.

Additional thoughts in regards to comments I've seen on here and the previous thread:

I also DO NOT support the idea that privates should only be gifted/not offered to friends. If I can't own a thing, I can't own it. Be an adult and realize you're not entitled to something just because you want it. If someone wants to sell their spare copies of a private or offer something for sale to their group only because they're rewarding loyalty etc etc, good for them. I hope they can recoup their cost. Creative endeavors I've paid for are not public property and it's absurd for anyone to act like they're entitled to it. Would you demand that someone make you prints of the art of their OC that they commissioned just because they want it? Or that an artist who creates a piece should be passing any copies out for free because it's unfair to charge? No, you wouldn't. Digital art is art. It's still paid for and therefore the person who paid for it has a right to control how they distribute it so long as they don't violate site rules.

As for the unlimited vs limited discussion. I'm really glad for everyone who has no trouble filling at least a first batch on their unlimited items. But, as SEVERAL people have come forward to mention, that is not the case for all of us. I've literally had over 20 items sitting around since AUGUST 2019 that I cannot fill a first batch on. I will not be making the item unlimited when it's obvious that people aren't that interested in it. Sorry for folks who appear 5 years down the road - but there's plenty of site items I also cannot acquire that are retired/old plot prizes/old war prizes etc and don't have any for sale.

Adding to that: everything being always available forever and ever means your item has no resale value. I'm not even talking about trumped up "rares" value. Items that you paid 600 csc for that you cannot resell for what you paid because they're always and forever potentially coming back/brought back/unlimited is a downside for anyone who buys things and then cannot end up working with them eventually. I have quite a lot of things I paid slot for that I cannot get even half of slot back on because nobody wants them, they're still in shops, and they'll just wait and see if someone has given up and pawned the item when pawn reopens. I cannot even sell these things for pawn prices sometimes so...yeah. Unlimited means a lot of people will determine "I'll just get it later" (myself included! yep, guilty of it because if it's between something that only has 20-30 copies or something that I know is going to be available in shops forever...I'll put off the shop one over and over to get the other item).

I just want to note that firstly, you didn't hurt my feelings on the previous thread. If you'd done so, I'd have said so, so please don't assign feelings to me because you think you did a thing that I never said happened. Also, I appreciate that you personally haven't had issues filling batches on unlimited items, but person after person keeps telling you that they are having that issue and rather than accepting that your experience isn't the standard (as demonstrated) you just keep repeating "well I'm not having any trouble so unless I can see evidence then it's not an issue like you people replying to me are saying it is" when....that's the evidence. The evidence is the people who keep telling you they're also having that trouble. It's very strange to ask for more examples, get them, and still refuse to acknowledge what people are saying.

I also haven't seen anyone telling new releasers that they should limit their items or they won't slot. I've literally never seen that advice given. Has it happened in private groups or discord or somewhere I didn't see it? Possible. I'm not going to deny maybe it's happened somewhere, but that is not the standard of advice given. Almost everyone refers people to the guides and just explains what batch limits are and notes that you can also say unlimited or say "submitting as unlimited but only releasing X now and more later" or whatever. That's the standard of advice given from my personal reading experience and the advice I personally give to people. I never tell them "don't make it unlimited or nobody will slot" and I don't see any other releasers saying that either.

[edit]

HELPFUL THINGS I FORGOT TO ADD BECAUSE I'M A TIRED B

For folks wanting to see all of the new CWs, I know the Feed is...eh. I also know that you can't really sort the CW Search feature. Until the database is ready, you can use two options to at least see the latest CWs and scroll through.

In the Wardrobe - you can uncheck the box labelled "only show items you own" and also select the category of CWs only and the sort by to "added to site" with a direction of "descending" to see the newest items first:

visual screenshot of that above

A second option is to look on SubetaLodge - we try to get the newly approved CWs up as soon as possible after approval. As mentioned at the top of my post, I'm dealing with a lot IRL right now so I've been lagging but the other staff has been really kind in picking up my slack. You do have to click on each item to view the overlays but it's another option, especially if the wardrobe is giving you any kind of trouble.

To see them on SL: Under the Lists heading at the top, hover and select "Custom Items." Once the page loads, under the Sort By option, choose "Time Created (new to old) and they'll appear in a list from newest first. Or you can click this link where I've set the search parameters for you.

pinging you specifically since I see you both mentioned this here and I know the site is having problems off and on!

- I'm not asking for more anecdotal evidence. I don't believe you or anyone else is a liar; I believe you and (honestly, only a few) other people who have said this to me believe that capping increases sales.

(I've also heard a lot of people say this that don't NOT cap batches, so...they are just repeating it.)

What I want to see, if people are going to keep telling new CW makers this, is numbers. Not one person here saying "this is my experience" and another person there on a discord server saying "this is my experience" and 30 people who have never NOT capped batches repeating it.

I want to see... G-d, I don't even know how to put this. I want to see data.

Where I work, we had a problem with repeat referrals of patients who had the wrong insurance to be seen there. Everyone was totally convinced, based on their personal observations, that these referrals were coming from community doctors outside the hospital system.

So I and the clinic manager sat down and crunched a whole lot of numbers, and we discovered that they were actually coming from our Emergency Department and our Speciality Clinics. The community referrals were actually a very low percentage.

Everyone who had been saying this had seen it happen (or knew people who had). Nobody was lying. Everyone's personal experience--or so they believed--was that the things they'd been saying were true, and when I crunched the numbers, I expected those numbers to confirm what they had been saying, but they didn't.

It's very easy to form an association between a variable (whether or not you cap your batches) and a result (lower sales). But there are a lot of other variables that go into how many items people sell, so I do not think people can truly say that they know this for sure.

Even if we had numbers, we wouldn't for sure know that it was causal rather than correlational, because it's impossible to test for all variables (timing of releases, type of release, &c), but we would at least know that there really is an association. And knowing an association actually existed would make me a lot more chill about the people who say this.

(Causality and correlation are hard to pull apart, which is why studies on what people eat and how it affects them are always so difficult to use to prove cause, because you don't know what the other differences between the two groups were. Like, are vegans really more likely to get depressed, and red meat eaters really more likely to get cancer, or are there other factors that make people who are prone to depression attracted to veganism, or are red meat eaters also more likely to smoke?)

That said, I absolutely do not think that encouraging people to buy based on "resale value" is a good idea.

I think people not buying things they are not sure they will like would be a good idea.

And if capping really does increase sales, it probably drives a lot of impulse purchases that don't work out, meaning that more items end up on the resale market. So I'm not sure it actually affects resale value all that much, unless you are trying to make a significant profit off your mistakes.

I have resold capped releases and not made back what I paid, or not been able to sell them as higher than slot, because even if there were only 20 copies, 20 people immediately bought them, but a lot of them didn't keep them. And anecdotally, if I feel like I have to be rushed in making a purchasing decision, it's less likely to be a wise purchase.

Sure, if you resell items that are still in the releaser's shop you will not get back 100% of what you paid, but you can still sell those items by pricing only a little less than the releaser. But that's not as bad as the pawn shop!

The only reason ever to pawn a CW is that you need CSC right this minute--unless it's a CW that people really don't want, which does happen.

With respect to privates, I'm just going to say that if a storefront has a section in it where they say, "oh no, even though we are putting those on display for everyone who comes in here to look at, we only sell those to our friends, and only if they promise to sell them back to us and never give them as gifts" in a mall or on Market Street, people would think that was really weird.

There are stores that have special items for people who are in a loyalty program, sometimes, but in those situations, it's still open to the public, you just have to buy their other stuff. Like you can't buy Angelic Pretty event tickets unless you buy Angelic Pretty merchandise. But you don't have to be a friend of the owner or even a full-time lolita.)

This doesn't happen on other sites and I think a lot of people on Subeta think it's okay mostly because they're used to it. So someone comes along who joined in 2017 and says "hey this is weird, why is everyone cool with it?"

And I get that I'm going to take heat for that, but I wish people would just be more receptive to the idea that this is a Subeta thing and not everyone needs to "grow up" just because they dislike it or think it's a bad idea.

I mean, I own privates and I keep my agreements. But I do think that it's weird that people react as if it were uncouth or rude to question whether this is really a good idea or even a kind thing to do.

I guess I just don't think things should be in public shops unless the public is allowed to buy them. (Also, I did not suggest that this change should be made, because I know people here won't support it. What I said was that if I had been making the rules it wouldn't have ever been permitted.)

I didn't say it increases sales. I said it reduces the chances of not filling a single batch because sometimes people won't slot if it's unlimited to help get it on site - they'd rather wait indefinitely to buy it at a later date because they don't feel it's as pressing as something limited. That doesn't mean more copies sell, and isn't what I said or implied.

I also like that your singular experience is somehow not anecdotal but every other person who's expressed an opposing experience somehow is. I've been here since the start of CWs, since there was no such thing as limits at all (everything was technically submitted as unlimited). I've watched the market change and grow and shrink and adapt. I pay attention to trends, I pay attention to current and past issues when making decisions. I am not unique in my experiences (as others have confirmed). I feel like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing at this point because you refuse to acknowledge any experience but your own as factual or true.

What exactly do you think data is if not people telling you their experiences with trying to release unlimited vs capping batches based on interest? Experience is data my dude. I can't go back and unedit peoples posts or view every single group board to see when something was posted vs how long it took to slot a first batch. It's not possible (and staff can't either, older forums are gone, the site no longer caches the old posts vs the edits - we don't have hard numbers to give you, but that doesn't mean that what we have isn't data). You're absolutely welcome to join every single public group and start monitoring when the initial ping happens vs when a first batch gets full and run your own numbers - but none of us have time to do that. And patient referrals are not at all the same as PERSONAL EXPERIENCE ABOUT A THING WE ARE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING. Your clinic assuming the referrals were coming from outside your system is not at all the same as me going "I PERSONALLY EXPERIENCE THIS AND HAVE FOR A LONG TIME." I'm not assuming something is happening, I'm literally having it happen to me. So please kindly stop telling me I'm making false and unfounded assumptions on my actual literal personal experience. Seriously, it's ridiculous. I'm not telling you that you're lying about slotting because you're the one slotting and confirming you are, and telling me I'm just misinterpreting things when I'm actually factually experiencing them is telling me I'm lying about my own actual experience. Seriously, stop. You won't convince me I'm wrong about the items sitting on my board without a full single batch because I can see them, unfilled, on my own board.

Also, I'm not saying everyone experiences what I experience. I'm saying this is the reason I cap MY batches. It's also the reason quite a few others cap THEIR batches - their own experience. You seem to be under the impression that we're running around whispering that lower batches = more money (untrue - more full batches means I have a better chance of at least making back my cost) and that we're telling others to do that (also untrue - please point me to where this is the advice and folks are screaming that you must always cap your batches because I'm still not seeing it).

ALSO I NEVER ONCE SAID I ENCOURAGE ANYONE TO BUY BASED ON RESALE VALUE. Seriously, stop trying to put words into my mouth, it's getting really trite. I said that people who spend the equivalent of anywhere from $5-7 on a virtual item and who end up unable to use it would like to at least try to get back close to what they spent. Not being able to do so means they have less money to put back into the market when they slot/buy something else. If they spend 700 csc and end up having to pawn something and only get 225csc, they don't have enough csc to potentially buy something else. It's part of why folks trade too - trying to get something they'll use vs something they won't. I didn't say people only buy so they can mark things up 100000% - I said it's discouraging to not even be able to get back what you paid, and it is.

Sometimes people think they'll like a thing, and then discover they don't like it as much as expected. Or that it doesn't actually work with the rest of their wardrobe. Do you know how many items I've bought that ended up not matching other things even though I thought they would? Or that looked odd with my particular standard base set up? A lot. I own approximately 3500 CWs - I don't use probably half of them. Some of them I hold onto because once in awhile I'll have an idea that works, but I do actually need to sell off the ones that don't work - and if I can't get back at least what I paid on them, that means I'm buying less CWs overall (either slotting or out of shops) because I don't have endless CSC to throw around. That's my personal experience, which I know you don't like, but I also know plenty of folks who are the same - if they want to get something new, they've got to sell something old - and if they can't get back even half of what they paid, they're not going to be able to afford anything new.

Well, the literal hundreds of items I end up pawning after pricing well below releasers shop price have something to say about that. I've had items sit in my shop for over a year at literally barely above what they'd cost when buying them out of pawn and still not had buyers - so you cannot always resell for "just under" what the user's CW shop has them for - that's my entire point about resale value being maintained if you end up unable to use something. Hell, there are items in the pawn that have been there since the very first time it opened because nobody wants them.

Some items will sell at a discount, some will not - assuming people can always get back most of what they paid is naive - and if that was the case the pawn would hardly have anything in it at all every time it opens.

Yep - which is why most folks release privates within their own private group forum and don't put them on the public forums. If you saw someone wearing a shirt out in the real world and asked where they bought it and they said it was a custom exclusive item they'd bought, would you demand whoever made it for them mass release copies? Nope, because that's weird as hell and makes you entitled.

Also - group exclusives for loyal customers are a thing here too. You too can gain access to them by joining groups and buying releases and being asked to join their private group after getting to know a person beyond what pixels they can offer you.

You keep referencing other sites but honestly...nobody has a system quite like this. Gaia set theirs up in the strangest way and have been jettisoning customers ever since. Most of the other avatar sites are long gone. CWs have actually helped build subeta and while we've moved a lot away from privates, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them existing except for people who feel somehow entitled to everything someone else has. If you need something that badly, commission a different version of it. Like...there's so few items that are super unique and private. I can only think of a couple of items that haven't had some sort of public equivalent or a ton of public recolors. I honestly wish I'd bought less privates when they were released because I spent a ton of CSC on things that I had no recourse if I wanted to sell because they didn't end up working. I sent literally hundreds of items back and lost thousands of dollars. I'm not blaming the releasers, I agreed to the rules, but getting hung up on what you can't have is such a silly thing to do. There's almost 39,000 custom wearables on this site - it's crazy to be worried about 1000 or so items that don't have public copies.

And I'm sorry you disagree that it's silly to be upset about privates, but it is. It's some pixels on a site that you're stomping feet over and saying should either only be given free or kept entirely to themselves and out of sight so that nobody has to feel...what? Left out? Over something they probably only want because it's private? I could understand if this was something site released that you put in work to, but it's someone's private art commission - it doesn't hurt you in any way, and getting bent over it is so ridiculous. I promise, you'll feel a lot better when you stop caring that so and so didn't invite you to slot on their super duper ultra friends item that you'll likely never end up wearing anyhow.

As for the rare instance where they're in the user's shop - locked items aren't even always private firstly. Secondly, sometimes they're there to make it easier for the user's group members to buy copies as they want - it's a big hassle to add one copy to the shop to buy it out and set up a trade for the one person who wants a copy. The site could sort this out themselves by making locked CWs not show up in a shop search. Problem solved yes? Then you don't have to think it's available for the few seconds it takes the shop to load and then see it's locked. (It would suck for all the folks who just keep them locked so they can keep track of sales or whatever, but I think it would maybe stop this issue you're having with seeing a private locked in a shop and not being able to have it.)

Some additional issues, because you seem to think we all just say "10 copies no more" always....

Most people (from what I've seen based on being in a lot of cw groups and also in the customwears ping group) do a slots TBD based off of interest as it is. A lot of folks wait to see the interest in an item/color from their group(s) before setting a limit. Some also don't even set a limit then, but still do TBD when they ping customwear and decide from there on how many copies to make it based on the slotters they get after a set amount of time. Limiting copies based off of interest isn't a bad thing at all. Neither is leaving it as unlimited if that's what they want to do. Like I said, I still haven't seen anyone telling people that they have to set any kind of a limit - not releasers who give advice, not the site, not the customers answering questions. The only thing I've seen people warn about is that you cannot change your mind once you do set a limit (and setting a limit as unlimited is still setting a limit technically). You can't decide later to increase it because of a rule put in place because of shit tons of scamming. You weren't here for it, as you yourself admitting, but it was a massive issue and that is the reason you cannot state a firm number and then increase it. Rules aren't inherently bad just because you don't know the reason behind them, this one is necessary.

Also, I retire things that don't sell anymore because I cannot have 3942803482 pages in my CW management and try to organize things and keep on top of it. I also personally hate trying to load a CW shop that has hundreds of items - it makes the site lag on my laptop and sometimes even freezes it. It's also overwhelming to try and find anything I might be looking for as a customer. I'll literally close a shop and not buy anything at all if it's that much of a hassle for me.

Also, I want you to understand that I do release anything I think would be a good general use item as unlimited and I do not retire them. I literally have 27 unlimited items sitting in my shop right now. Of those, 15 haven't sold even 10 copies - some of them are older even than the existence of CW shops. If I feel an item would be a good wardrobe staple, I generally make it unlimited - and then I cover the majority cost of submission more than 50% of the time because of lack of slotters. Of the limited items, I also have copies that sit there for months or years unbought, even when only 10 copies made it through batch submission method. I've got a top that was submitted at 20 based on interest and sold 12, the other 8 have sat there untouched since October. This is part of why I don't make everything unlimited, there's no need.

I never said my experience wasn't anecdotal.

It absolutely is. I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that we are both speaking from anecdotal personal experience and that neither of us in fact knows what the actual numbers are for the site as a whole.

I also never said that you, personally, tell other people that they have to cap batches. Or that people are being dragged off and told that they must. However, I have been present in conversations where everyone who is speaking discusses capping like it's a necessity, and other people present are hearing that. These were not conversations that I had with you. They didn't take place in the forums.

None of this is personal.

I'm not personally upset about privates, because I usually manage to get the things I really want eventually, and I think most people do, once they have been here a while.

I do not think, nor did I say, that you and everyone else on this site slot everything at 10 copies.

We are friends. I know you better than that.

If you are bothered by the fact that I said "I thought" you were upset about something (as opposed to saying that you actually were upset) I think you can respect why I'd prefer you not to put words in my mouth, particularly hyperbolic ones.

I am also very well aware that locked items aren't always private. I did not say it was wrong to lock things. (Locks are often not permanent. I locked things up during Luminaire that I was planning to give to my friends so that they wouldn't buy themselves what I planned to give them. Many people are perfectly willing to sell locked items. I am specifically talking about the sale of privates, not just locked items. Also, I did not make an official suggestion about forbidding it. I only said (again) that I wouldn't have done it the way it was done.

I'm absolutely not withdrawing my proposal/suggestion to revoke the batch limits rule, but I'm not going to continue to argue with people about it, either, because it keeps getting more vehement and distressingly personal.

I would like people to stop telling me that I would feel the way they do if I had only been present way back when, though, because I'm not convinced of that. I wasn't there, but plenty of people have told me what happened. I think I would've come up with a different solution if it had been up to me.

And I have never said retiring items should not be allowed; only that I wish people did not do quite so much of it. You don't need to defend your choices to me. I'm not the least bit upset with you because of the way you manage your shop.

You are only one of quite a few people I've discussed these ideas with. A lot of the discussions I've had (and many of the ones I've observed) have been on discord channels or private chats with other people. One of the conversations that concerns me most happened in private--someone I thought shared most of my opinions suddenly started saying things I'd never heard before from them, and I was frankly very shocked.

I'm honestly too tired to keep talking in circles with you anymore at this point. The only point I'll make is that I never said you'd feel a certain way if you'd been here back when. I said I was here then and I saw exactly why the rule was put into place and I still feel personally that it's an important rule. I also do not see staff removing it anytime soon because they had to deal with all of the rule breaking and scamming and things that were happening and freeze people who'd been helping make the site money for doing things that they shouldn't be doing.

Also, I can't see private conversations where someone told someone else how they must cap batches - nobody who isn't part of that conversation can see it. There's no easy way for any of us who actually do help new users to the market to counter things that are happening in y'alls private discords. It's part of the issue with discord being a replacement for site functions. It would be so much better if, when people ask you guys privately or you see a conversation happening privately, you'd direct them to the CW Guides that me and others spent forever putting together to curb this kind of misinformation and that the site staff stickied so it was easy to find right at the top of the CW Discussions forum.

I think a lot of the things that are problematic overall can be solved by the site making better/clearer official guides and a CW hub that is easily found and accessible. Then people could learn how it all works without the misinformation happening in whatever private discord you're in where you're seeing this happen.

I'd love to read more about your community SubQ shop idea! Do you have a link?

I don't think the lower cost of recolors would have to be huge to be significant to submitters. The fact that we're now able to indicate if items are recolors when creating new items signals to me a streamlining of the process on the backend, which I would assume means less work to the person in charge of the queue (at least most of the time, since recolors are rarely denied.) At the very least, I would love to see the cost of submitting skintone-only recolors lowered for bodymods, to help with that whole issue.

A while ago, posted about a way to give back to CW creators, and 100% I think that lowering the costs associated with submitting, in some way, would be the best way to give back and incentivize continued submissions - WITH the added benefit of making the entry point to new releasers easier!

I also do not support revoking the batch limit rules. It's been in place long enough that releasers know how to get around it if they're not sure how many batches to submit, and ultimately it was put into place to prevent scamming.

I'm having a hard time parsing everything you've written up til now (sorry!), so I won't discuss everything point by point, but please let me know if you have anything specific that you'd like me to add to the suggestions list if I missed it.

I do want to discuss your commentary on batch caps and availability as best I can, though. Sorry if this is a bit abbreviated, since again, I'm having trouble condensing everything you've mentioned. I have included your suggestion and 's regarding item availability, because I want this suggestion board to be open to everyone's opinions and I feel like it's important to allow other voices besides the same ol' CW cronies that usually pipe up in such threads. My goal is to drive more users to the CW market by overcoming whatever obstacles are stopping them, and I appreciate all commentary on this thread that could lead to that.

The most common reasons users seem to cap batches seem to be 1) lack of interest (ie. few people are slotting in the first or second batch, therefore no one will want batch 2/3/4 etc.), 2) FEAR of lack of interest (ie. no one will buy now if they can buy later, or no one will buy an item they can't resell later), or 3) limited edition items for events or specific groups. If you're like to read through the many comments about batch limits given by actual releasers in good faith, you can revisit the thread here.

Yes, this is anecdotal, but the combined experiences of releasers is still valuable, and significant data. Many releasers have been actively releasing CWs on this site for years, and have watched the ebb and flow of the market. When users share that they place caps bacause they need the profit to continue commissioning and releasing more CWs now, not sometime in the future when a few copies are sold from their shop, that is a valid reason. When users share that they bought and paid for an item with their own money, and therefore they only want x number of copies available, that is also a valid reason. If subeta itself were to change the policy to force all items to be unlimited, there would be ramifications. Personally, with 30k+ custom items on site, I don't think it's necessary to have every item available forever. There are plenty out there to buy and enjoy, and I would rather subeta NOT risk driving away the longtime releasers that keep the cw community/site alive. However, like I said, I think this should be a thread for all users to input their suggestions, so that staff can read them and respond accordingly.

That all said, I am happy to say that some releasers, myself included, have benefited from active discussions about limitations. In the past, I have capped a batch at 10 because I could only get a handful of slotters interested - just enough to get an item paid for and submitted. But thanks to listening to other users' experiences, I realized how many non-slotting buyers there are (aka, people who only buy from CW shops and secondhand), so I have decided to release 20 copies minimum, and potentially more, moving ahead so that I can engage those users as well. But, because I'm an artist, no money is spent on my part to get something made and submitted, I have a lot of freedom there that other users do not. Anyway, that's MY experience that I thought you might be interested in.

I feel like the CW community vs CW buyers that are not actively part of the slotting experience are at a bit of an impasse, because releasers are not super into the idea of releasing large batches/unlimited batches because of low interest, but CW buyers are frustrated at lack of available copies. Ideally there would be some way to engage buyers to seek out CWs more during the slotting stage itself, so that releasers could better gauge OVERALL site interest, vs the interest that they actually see on their slotting threads. I've been mulling over some kind of public slotting system integrated into the CW shops (which would remove the need for interacting on slotting threads), but I haven't come up with anything good yet.

and beat me to an explanation about browsing, but I did add/revise a suggestion on the first post about better and more versatile browsing options, including adding pagination so you can view more pages! ^_^

Thanks for the input! I am personally in agreement with you about the item availability section, but I felt it was fair to include those suggestions in the list for users to support or not, according to their wishes. You and I know from the many discussions we've participated in over the last few years the reasoning behind release numbers, and I am 100% in support of allowing users the ability to choose what's best for them - but perhaps there are people outside of the CW releasing sphere who have strong opinions otherwise. I figure that staff should see everyone's ideas and decide what's best for the site.

I agree that a lot of the misinformation and confusion regarding CWs could be circumvented if there were an information hub and more official intervention. I think staff are remiss in letting this whole community run itself, it's a lot to ask of a large group of varied individuals to make sure everything is presented perfectly/understandably to a curious outsider.

You wrote a lot and I can't really condense it all in my head and respond, sorry! But I am adding your suggestion about taking locked items out of the shop search to the first page. If you have anything else you'd like me to add, please let me know if I missed it!

Thanks bub! I look forward to reading whatever you decide to write! :)

Oh, I absolutely understand why that section is there and don't at all disagree that you should put the biggest suggestions you've found in the first post. I just wanted to explain my personal issues with those points.

And honestly, beyond staff implementing a better/more comprehensive hub and guides (and I will still 100% help make those for free just to see them get done lol), the only big suggestion/point I had is the one you've added about removing locked items from appearing as in a shop in shop searches. I'm glad that's added and I can't recall saying anything else that should be either :)

Super old (2015 !) link here !, so be careful to not post.

An issue I find with lowering the cost, even with just skin tones, is things still have to be looked at a good amount. Even recently I saw an item be approved that doesn't match any of the bases and I am assuming matches some base + item combo to get the coloration. It's not really cut and dry. Obviously in things like this, if they happened I wouldn't mind at all. I just don't see it happening.

I also have brought up transformable items a few times behind the scenes and I don't think they'd be made, as much as I want that to happen because I love making limbs. I think only Amber does the coding for them and it's an annoying process. I want it though, and maybe in the further future if it's re-coded ?

- I gave the example from my work for a reason, and that is that it's not uncommon, when you finally get the numbers, to find out that something a lot of people believe to be true based on their interpretation of their experiences is actually wrong.

Humans are really good at finding patterns in things, because that's how we learn, but sometimes those patterns are really wrong. It sure looked to everyone in our department like the referrals were coming from outside the system because those were the ones they paid attention to, and the more people talked about it, the more attention was paid to them.

But after someone went into the charts and pulled the data and we ran it through some very basic analyses it became apparent that the theory was wrong.

I don't object to people having a hypothesis that batch capping increases sales or helps get initial batches filled; what I object to is that it's put forward as fact when it's a widely held, but untested, theory.

I've never suggested that capping batches shouldn't be allowed at all. I think that was Tank, maybe?

ETA: When I talk about "numbers" I'm not talking about people sharing different personal experiences; I'm talking about actually, if there is a way to do it, taking a look at a wide sample of releases at different periods of time (it is, for instance, definitely harder to get slotters during the latter part of a holiday because there are so many special releases and events competing for people's CSC) and comparing the data on how many slots are offered and how many takers they get.

I don't think your anecdotal experience or mine or Reapers or anyone else's is valueless. But this is a question that would really benefit from a little objective statistical analysis, and I wish there were some kind of record in the system.

But unless there's data hiding in the site database somewhere, I'm not sure how we would get the numbers. :(

- Of course you can't see my private chats or what goes on on all the discord servers. I never thought you could.

I just don't understand why you seemed to think that you'd been part of all the conversations I was talking about until I came out and told you that they weren't all here on the forums. I always assume there are lots of conversations going on that I'm not part of. People chat in private forum groups, on discord, in each other's profile comments, in smail, and on tumblr and other platforms.

My apologies for being super late. Thanks for compiling this list of suggestions. I hope to see some of them come to life on site.

I love all the suggestions about the submission process and pricing.

I agree with most of the suggestions, except the item availability section. As mentioned, the rules for those were put after instances of scamming. I understand it's not convenient for anyone but it prevents future scamming incidents. I don't think the minimum number of public copies rule would be of any help, if anything I would think it's going to encourage resellers. What if people want to buy another copy for their friends who has the item on their wl?

Although the CW shop feed got a good revamp, I still think it needs work. It's nice to see cws from releasers who I don't follow, but I also want to toggle between the shops I follow and I don't follow. It's unfortunate that some items get pushed off of our feed after we unlocked them bc we were reserving copies for people. So yes, perhaps add some more pages to our feed would be nice. There is already a search filter to exclude locked items, but it's kind of hidden.

I don't know if you're intentionally misinterpreting me or what but this is getting totally ridiculous and this is honestly the last reply I'm making. I never expected to be privy to private conversations, nowhere did I assume I'd seen all private conversations. I don't need you to tell me people talk to their friends in private, I'm neither a naive child nor a moron. I also see conversations on the discords I'm in, on tumblr, in comments, within forum group threads I'm part of. I'm aware people talk in places other than the public discussions forums.

However, you cannot simultaneously state that we're all hyping paranoia about batch limits and slotting even though you haven't seen evidence of that being an issue (despite us confirming we're actually experiencing it) and expect us to take at face value that new creators are being inundated with demands that they must cap their batches or never slot. You don't get to demand evidence of one and provide no evidence for your claims - especially when every new creator who actually asks for advice publicly gets told factual information about the ways you can submit and that it's up to them and nobody is telling folks they must cap their batches.

If you are seeing people spread false fear and misinformation in private conversations then advise them to get help on-site from the people who have been here since the start and are not spreading fear or misinformation. You could have a positive impact and actually be helpful instead of sitting back and acting like we're all fear-mongering and trying to lecture us based on your own limited experience.

And I'm officially done with this discussion - you can reply but I'm stepping away because I don't appreciate the tone you've been taking with me this entire time.

...I'm sorry? I didn't want it to get to this place, either.

: I am seriously considering not participating in future threads of this nature. I've upset people that I really like and respect, and I didn't want that to happen.

I don't mean to talk down to people, and I know I come off that way, but I have no idea how to respond without sounding like that in a situation like this.

When someone responds to something I've said with an argument that does not convince me, the only thing I can do is explain why I disagree with their argument as clearly and politely as possible. I guess sometimes this sounds like I think someone's stupid, but I don't.

If matching the tone of the person I'm replying to would make things even worse, I default to as detached a tone as I can manage, particularly if I'm feeling very insulted myself and don't want to escalate. But sometimes that upsets people more.

And when I get the same argument back, over and over, I really don't know what to do.

If the only response I could make that would satisfy everyone is "I've changed my mind, you're right," then there is nothing I can say that will not piss everyone off. (Unless that's actually true, but in this case, it very much isn't.)

I don't want to hurt people and I also don't want to be hurt.

But I'm also at my wit's end as to how NOT to do that without conceding a point that I still disagree with.

I'm sorry that I hurt people in this thread.

But I also feel like I get stuck in situations where nothing I can say won't hurt people, unless I agree with them, and I don't.

Totally a good argument, and I suppose it would be a fine line between a discount that helps/supports releasers, and one that negatively impacts the salary of the queue master.

I know transformable items have been discussed several times, and I think you actually let me know in a thread a while back that staff isn't interested because of the work involved. I totally get that - but it doesn't stop me from hoping that some kind of solution will be found here! :P Perhaps if the back-end system is revamped so that adding new transformable items isn't such a pain, it could be possible.

That was a really cool thread about the CW design contests! I LOOOOVE the idea of the subq design contest that mentioned, something like that would be an absolutely perfect use for the Design subforum I have spitballed in the first post. Staff could host a Designer contest thread, users could submit ideas for designs for all the pieces, and CW artists could "sign-up" for different elements of the designer line. Super cool idea. Now I want to do some kind of user-run event like this for CWs!!

I totally get what you're saying - without verifiable data, numbers tend to congeal into an vague mass in peoples' brains. I get it, and I understand why you want to see actual numerical data - but it's still pretty dismissive to say, "well, despite what all you many releasers may think, I'm not sure your experience is enough." However, in the interest of a good faith argument, I went through my own releases since last July, when I started using my preclaim group for (most) new releases, and compiled as much data as I had for you to take a look at:

A long list of release info

As accurate as I could make it, though I may have inadvertently fudged a number here or there. These numbers do not count any copies that I purchased for my own use or as extras, or those I purchased for birthday recipients, so the number may not perfectly add up tot the total number of copies FYI.

This list does not include a few things I preclaimed for but haven't released, or some event items that were unlimited during the event because I don't have numbers for those.

My general process these days is private preclaim - public release/take slots - move item to CW shops for pickup - unlock for public buyers after invites have been picked up.

Preclaims: 7/13/19 - 6 preclaims Public Release: 7/18/19 - 20 copies Slots Claimed: 3 Slots Claimed Sold in Shop: 5 Copies Remaining in Shop: 5

Preclaims: n/a Public Birthday Release - 20 Copies chosen by bday recipient Slots Claimed: 4 Sold in Shop: 7 Copies Remaining in Shop: 7

Preclaims: n/a Public Birthday Release - 10 Copies based on interest Slots Claimed: 4 Sold in Shop: 4 Copies Remaining in Shop: 0 SOLD OUT

Preclaims: 7/30/19 - 9 preclaims Public Release: 08/05/19 - 30 copies Slots Claimed: 20 Droplist: 3 Sold in Shop: n/a SOLD OUT

Preclaims: 08/08/19 - 7 preclaims Public Release: 08/13/19 - 20 copies Slots Claimed: 5 (+2 that had preclaimed but not purchased yet) Sold in Shop: 5 Copies Remaining in Shop: 3

Preclaims: 08/13/19 - 6 preclaims Public Release: 09/10/19 - 40 Copies Slots Claimed: 11 (+2 that had preclaimed but not purchased yet) Sold in Shop: 7 Copies Remaining in Shop: 15

Preclaims: 08/13/19 - 7 preclaims Public Release: 08/24/19 - Unlimited for 48 Hours Slots Claimed: n/a Sold in Shop: unknown Copies Remaining in Shop: retired

Preclaims: 08/13/19 - 3 preclaims Public Release: Black Friday - 30 Copies Slots Claimed: n/a Sold in Shop: 11 Copies Remaining in Shop: n/a Retired From Shop

Preclaims: n/a Public Birthday Release - 20 Copies based on interest Slots Claimed: 7 Sold in Shop: 2 Copies Remaining in Shop: 8

Preclaims: n/a Public Birthday Release - 20 copies chosen by bday recipient Slots Claimed: 6 Sold in Shop: 1 Copies Remaining in Shop: 9

Preclaims: 08/23/19 - 4 preclaims Public Release: 09/04/19 - 30 copies Slots Claimed: 7 Sold in Shop: 1 Remaining in Shop: 16

Preclaims: 08/23/19 - 4 preclaims Public Release: 09/20/19 - 20 Copies Slots Claimed: 10 Sold in shop: 5 Remaining in shop: 0 SOLD OUT

Preclaims: n/a Public Birthday Release - 20 Copies Chosen by bday Recipient Slots Claimed: 3 Sold in Shop: 2 Copies Remaining in Shop: 13

Preclaims: n/a Public Birthday Release - 20 Copies Chosen by bday Recipient Slots Claimed: 18 Sold in Shop: n/a SOLD OUT

Preclaims: 09/03/19 - 4 preclaims Public Release: 09/24/19 - 10-20 Copies (submitted as 10) Slots Claimed: 0 Sold in Shop: 1 Copies Remaining in Shop: 4

Teeny Majestic Cupid Toga - not on site Preclaims: 09/03/19 - 2 preclaims Slots Claimed: 0

Preclaims: 09/19/19 - 4 preclaims Public Release: 09/26/19 - 20 Copies Slots Claimed: 1 Sold in Shop: 0 Copies Remaining in Shop: 14

Preclaims: n/a Public Release: 09/26/19 - 20 Copies Slots Claimed: 6 Sold in Shop: 4 Copies Remaining in Shop: 9

Preclaims: 09/19/19 - 4 preclaims Public Release: Unlimited for Black Friday Slots Claimed: n/a Sold in Shop: 1 or 2 Retired From Shop

Preclaims: 10/10/19 - 4 Preclaims Public Release: 10/17/19 - 20 Copies Slots Claimed: 15 Sold in Shop: n/a SOLD OUT

Preclaims: 10/21/19 - 4 preclaims Public Release: 10/21/19 - Unlimited During Morostide Slots Claimed: 32 Sold in Shop: 7 Remaining in shop: unlimited

Preclaims: 11/05/19 - 4 preclaims Public Release: Unlimited for Black Friday Slots Claimed: n/a Sold in Shop: unknown (30-50 I think) Retired from Shop

Preclaims: 11/05/19 - 4 preclaims Public Release: Unlimited for Black Friday Slots Claimed: n/a Sold in Shop: 4 Retired from Shop

Preclaims: n/a Public Release: 11/10/19 - Unlimited for 48 Hours Slots Claimed: n/a Sold in Shop: unknown Retired from Shop

Preclaims: 11/20/19 - 3 preclaims Public Release: Black Friday - unlimited but not retired Slots Claimed: n/a Sold in Shop: 11 Remaining: unlimited

Preclaims: n/a Public Birthday Release - 20 Copies Chosen by bday Recipient Slots Claimed: 12 Sold in Shop: 1 Remaining in Shop: 5

Public Birthday Release - 30 copies Slots Claimed: 11 Sold in Shop: 0 Remaining in Shop: 17

Preclaims: 01/22/20 - 8 preclaims Slots Claimed: 11 Sold in shop: n/a SOLD OUT

Public Birthday Release - 20 Copies Chosen by bday Recipient Slots Claimed: 15 Sold in Shop: n/a (not unlocked yet) Copies Remaining: 4

Public Birthday Release - 30 Copies based on interest Slots Claimed: 20 Sold in Shop: n/a (not unlocked yet) Copies Remaining: 8

Summary:

So, I had a couple of slam dunks, and 6 of 29 releases sold out of all released copies. I'm disappointed that I didn't think to write down the exact number of copies sold during my 48 hour unlimited releases, but only about half of them sold more copies than if I had just released them normally, compared to the numbers for the normal releases.

By these metrics, slotting at around 20 copies seems to be about as many as I'm able to sell for most items, though I need to still try and judge on a case-by-case basis. All items in my preclaim group of about 35 frequent buyers are released without a batch limit listed, and I use the interest there to help determine how many copies to submit as/release publicly. So, in that way, my items are both "unlimited" and "capped" at the same time. I've had items sitting in my shop with extra copies since July, so the issue is not availability, but perhaps desirability. I'm a middling-popularity releaser - my items sell pretty well to a core group of buyers that are actively slotting, but buyers using the CW shops do not appear to be super interested.

So for the moment, I feel my strategy is working pretty well to satisfy my needs, the desires of my active buyers, and the desires of the site as a whole. That doesn't mean I can dictate to any other releaser what their strategy should be, because their personal needs and the desires of their buying group are different. I have only had a handful of users come to me after an item was sold out and ask for a copy, so the ability to go back and sell more copies is a non-issue for me personally.

Since you've started selling your own CWs, I would love to see what data you have collected to support your ideals for the CW community. Do you have any anecdotal experience RE: buyers supporting your methods? I would absolutely love it if users from outside my usual buyers would approach me to discuss my releases, but thus far I've not had many open a conversation with me.

[edit] I just saw your new post, honestly I'm not super sure what to say? I want everyone to be able to take part in discussions like these, but sometimes your tone does seem very argumentative. I'm not much of a debater and truly have a hard time wading through long arguments to parse out the point, so at times I feel like I have forgotten the essence of what you're trying to get across. I've tried to base my own discussion around the idea that CWs should be perpetually available for anyone that wants them at any time (which seems to be your argument??? since you want to get rid of the batch limit rule and be able to bring back old releases regardless of past caps), but I sincerely apologize if I have misread your intention and have been babbling on without a good idea of what I'm talking about. In this particular discussion the only thing that has frustrated me has been your dismissal of other releasers' experience as not valid 'enough,' which is why I tried to show as much data as I could to support my personal views on why batch caps are fine in my view and there's no need to get rid of the limiting rule.

If you feel frustration at not being able to get your point across during a discussion, it's okay to simply say that and remove yourself. Sometimes neither person in a debate is wiling to concede their point, and that's just the way it is, I guess.

You're not late! ^_^ Thank you for adding your voice!

Thank you for your support and discussion on pricing and item availability.

I also agree that the CW Shop feed could use a little more work. I have been adding new CWs to my shop to allow for pick up of copies, and I'm always a little disappointed that by the time I unlock an item, it's no longer on the feed page. So I kind of feel like my new shop releases never get seen.

As far as I know the excluding locked items only apples to the CW shop search, but if you use the regular shop search to look for a locked CW, it still appears, which may be confusing to people to see an item in the wardrobe, then do a shop search for it only to be taken to a CW shop with a lock in place.

let me "show" you my side XD I am releasing CWs I would love to see for my own use I usually do not care wether people love them or not so apart from my first like 10 or so I have never bothered to slot for my items I just push the first batch through so my artist and I get a copy

I tend to put the rest of the copies in my shop and sell them (If people want them) but sometimes ( after a few years ) I find my CWs on peoples WL and on one hand I feel happy but then I always feel a bit guilty for doing small batches only. Not to resell - but I do not see a reason for unlimited / 100 copies since I think my taste is a bit .... special and not for everyone.

I have had a few CWs as lumi gifts for friends - so yes they were limited and at that time it looked like a good idea - since I do not have a lot of friends on here

and now those BGs/foregrounds turn up on quite a few WLs and I wish I could keep gifting them, but I can't (and please do not misunderstand I would not want to sell them, just have the chance to gift them AND they have never been slotted I just put a limit on )

For one foreground I did a recolor BUT for my BGs the rtist who made them is not online here any longer so I would have no idea how to get a recolor.

I feel sort of bad if I see those BGs sit on WLs

I have no clue if the copies I gifted are still with the people who I gifted them, too but they were never private or such a thing so yes, they could be sold/traded

I would still wish I'd be bale to get 10 more copies to gift to those people who had them on their Wls for 2 years and longer. But yeah XD

But then... I am weird XD

Since you don't take slots on your items, why not submit as unlimited (or 20, 30, etc copies) instead of submitting just as 10? Then, after you give away your friend copies at Lumi, if you decide you want to give away or sell some later, you can order more batches without breaking any rules.

that's waht I will be doign from now on but still feeling guilty for the smll batches on the two lumi BGs XD