I am referring to the icon itself, not what it is worth though! For example, I would've much preferred the 50 vesnali coins to have something different - like a golden border around, or a little laurel with the number 50. Anything really that makes it stick out from its single-coin-child, if that makes sense.

Like I said though, maybe it's just my own preference. Quality of life for designers, maybe? It's possible a lot of people would have zero qualms with the same generic item and having the name different and im the only weirdo!

The transparent body mods are an alternative but honestly, I find it tricky. We shouldn't have to 'cheat' in order to get any available skin tone, because the shading / shadow positioning can still somewhat limit us. Possibly this is something that will get enough attention to be looked at though!

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I think it depends on the skin tones you use for your HA! If you always only use the same one - say base 2 - and you're content with this, it's true that a higher priced cw would be more frustrating. But if you use many skin tones, having them bundled would actually be much cheaper on the long run, because you'd have the option to switch whenever you want!

Thank you for letting me know! I'll have to take that into consideration and try some stuff when I submit :)

Also I just wanted to step in and clarify why I personally am up in arms about the lack of availability on body mods vs basic recolors.

Me wearing a blue shirt vs a white shirt is not the same as me wearing a skin tone of my choice vs the one I'm pigeon holed into. The color of my HA's hair isn't oppressive, but the lack of options for skin tones, is. Subeta is, and always has in my opinion, preached diversity. And I'm very proud they do that, but while we're getting a lot of attention for gender identity and sexuality, they're ignoring a massive issue which is race.

Yeah, that's what I was agreeing with. For the coin, that would make sense, because it's actually a wholly different item. Not the same basic item but with one slight color change. I agree that the 50 Vesnali Coins item needs to be physically different. But I disagree that the sleeves need that. I think they'd be better served to just adjust the visible item name because it doesn't matter what version you own, you can transform it at any point to any of the other 10 versions. It's not actually a different item once transformed. Or, b1 through b10 aren't. The original is different and it is kinda wonky how the original just sits and then the others are posed (ideally, that wouldn't be the case with CW mods - they'd have the same pose, just different tone options).

I doubt artists would want to make 10+ CIs for the same exact item and color and I definitely wouldn't want to have to submit 10+ CIs. One with a shifted name works fine for me generally.

I agree - it's definitely a pain in the ass even with the transparent because making sure you're not hovering right over the lines on the chest or the waist etc etc can be hard for positioning and then also having to worry about the weird under shading and how to overshadow it so it works right.

Also your previous edit came through after I posted haha (about the recolor submission bundles).

I do still wish that recolors were cheaper to submit in general but staff has explained that it, in general, takes the same amount of time to inspect/approve/deny as a new item. I wish it was different but sadly it isn't and I don't see them budging on that front anytime soon. I think mods that are the same overall aside from the skin tone fall into a slightly different category because it's really the same exact item over and over except for the skin to make it useful for anyone who might buy it.

As said above, apparently there has been some talk of fixing this issue in the new wardrobe, yes. But like you, I'm a little leery of waiting forever for that to come about, since we know it's a major undertaking and we don't really have a timeline of that. I feel like the system is already in place for transformable items, if we could just tweak the submission process a bit to get the files on site.

I suppose technically, we could submit any skin tone color to go with a body mod, including colors that don't match official site skin tones - making it easier to match purple, white, black, or modded skin tones like the little dolls. That'd be cool, actually.

I would like to see an option to submit a "default" skintone of your choice, then be able to submit additional skintone recolors at your discretion. Not everyone would want to do the full gamut of the 10 "natural" tones, and as I said to Mesmer, it would also be cool to have the option to submit non-conforming colors as well if that's what suits you.

Ideally, it'd be lovely if there was some way to incentivize submitting a wider range of colors, because honestly a big reason why I've brought this topic up is because of the previous discussion about lack of skintone diversity in CWs. But, I recognize because of either personal taste, cost to submit, cost to commission, or even disinterest on the part of the artist to provide all the edited colors, that it wouldn't be feasible to require a full range of colors.

I love that staff has been open to discussions like these, and I think eventually there will be somethingggg to address the limitations of mods.

[edit] Just saw your latest post! I've been mulling over the recolor cost thing a bit and I agree, I think if there were an option to select a special "Skintone" recolor, where ONLY the skintone is changed and nothing else, it would be ideal. I would hope that staff would be open to drastically reducing the cost of additional skintones as long as nothing else about the overlay has changed. So, submitted a transformable item could be something like this:

Submit 1st overlay with default skin of choice at normal cost > Item is accepted > Submit same overlay with ONLY skintone recolored using a new Skintone Recolor checkbox/drop down list for 100 CSC > Skintone recolor is accepted and added as a transformable option to previously accepted item > Repeat as desired for additional skintones

It mayyyy be that, because of coding issues, all desired skintones would have to be submitted at once. In which case, it would be base price + 100 CSC or whatever per submitted additional skintone up front. Not sure what would be easier!

I can totally understand your concern. I would hope that subeta would allow for a drastically reduced "recolor" fee for each skin tone submitted, but it's possible that the overall cost for body mods would end up higher than before. I would hate for anyone to be priced out of certain items, but I can't see a way around it. Perhaps being more inclusive of skintone choices would attract a larger buying base, and make lower, or at least unaltered, slot prices feasible.

I definitely feel like transformable items should be clearly differentiated somehow, but I personally feel like just altering the title for each color would be enough, with the item description being like other transformable items on site. Ie. Transforms between Item XXXX Base 1, Base 2, Base 3..., etc.

I'm glad I posted this thread so we could thinktank a bit through the process. It's not as straightforward as I was originally thinking!

Thank you for the ping here! I'm happy to see the discussion continued on the body mod side of things in this thread, and I completely agree with your points on body mods (both the overlays and CIs) throughout. I think this is a very good idea, and though there certainly are logistical questions (on the artist side, on the CW cost side, on the implementation side, etc), I think the more inclusive end result of this idea would be well worth the effort of finding solutions to those questions.

To jump into your discussion with (hopefully that's okay!) on the topic of extra work for artists, as a fellow artist/releaser: It's true that recoloring a body mod item to account for the 10 bases would involve some extra work, and I agree that most artists will likely charge more for that. From a purely technical standpoint, I wonder if it would be possible (if transformable body mod CWs became a thing) to provide informal and unofficial process optimization tips/resources to mitigate the amount of work needed, and thus the potential inaccessibility of body mod commissions due to cost. With efficient layer setups and hotkeys, an optimized workflow, pre-prepared skin color swatches, and batch actions (if using Photoshop), I think the work required to recolor a body mod for the 10 bases would actually be really minimal? I truly can't imagine that recoloring for the 10 bases and exporting each of those files would take more than 5-ish minutes total, aside from the one-time process-planning stage. It would add up over many items, sure, but the overall time/cost impact it would have could definitely be mitigated by sharp and efficient program usage, I think. Making a guide for efficient process tips & tricks would require someone/some people to put it together, though, which is also work, and it wouldn't be a cure-all of any sort. But if it's something that would potentially make inclusive body mods more accessible/common, in this hypothetical where transformable body mods exist, then personally, it's something I'd be willing to help put in the work to create.

Veering from the technical side of it, I'm also thinking about the CW economy side of it – thank you for your insight on that, Cathii! There's a lot there that I'm not equipped to address, but I keep going back to the point of one body mod CW = all skin tones being fewer commissioned recolors for the artist and less profit for the releaser. Looking at the history and current landscape of "hands showing but not transparent over HA" body mods, I don't think that would have... a negative impact on profit or commissions, really? In my somewhat limited experience with digging through body mod CWs, I haven't seen much to indicate that releasers are commissioning and releasing dark-skinned body mods. There are surely exceptions, but I would say that the overwhelming trend is for skin-tone-specific body mods to be for bases 1 and 2. Since releasers by-and-large haven't been/aren't releasing dark-skinned body mods (for reasons of demand or otherwise), I would imagine that any overall effect on profit would be positive with transformable body mods. It would open up each body mod item to everyone who doesn't use bases 1 or 2, and that's more folks who could/would slot on an item. And if artists end up raising their prices a bit to account for the base recoloring work, then it's not really a loss of money or recolor commissions either, if the darker-skinned bases weren't going to get item recolors anyway.

Apologies for the wordiness! I know I'm new to the CW scene, so I hope that I'm not speaking baselessly with this. This is an idea I feel strongly about for many reasons, and again, I think that whatever potential obstacles are present are ones well worth solving to achieve greater inclusivity. On a purely personal note, I only ever use bases 7-10, so I would be all over slotting on transformable body mod items!

EDIT: Ahh I didn't see the responses that had accumulated while I was typing mine! Some of my points have already been addressed, so my bad for the redundancy!

I'm in full agreement. I'd love to be able to make the default the tone I use and then just like...ticky boxes for the other tones I'm uploading with. And the same for future recolors (because if it works out nicely, I'd be more willing to do more mods and such).

I....love recolors tbh. I love getting more colors on items and seeing a nice range on site and I think that would extend so much to mods for me (lords there are so many mods I'd like to have if we didn't have to do wonky positions or rely on getting enough people to make it worth the cost of buying a recolor). I can't think of how the site would/could incentivize us beyond helping with something like this. That would be a big incentive for me tbh. I'd be more willing to commission and buy mods which would in turn mean more money into the site at submission/slotting.

And yeah, like you and - I know Keith has some plans but it's all so nebulous because of time and money to work on the wardrobe, so I'm hoping staff will take a peek in here and start considering this or at least bump up background discussions so we can get something tangible to work with going forward.

I think they'd probably have to have all of the options in at once just for ease of transformations (I think it might be harder later to do it). I also think maybe having a new designated category for them like Body Mods - Transformable (and some indication in the name or something, or maybe a different colored star in the corner once it's on site so we know it's not a 'standard' cw) and having a slightly increased cost would be okay. An extra X amount of csc to factor in the extra work. I'm not sure what would work best for coding and the queue hahahaha.

I think it’s just my personal preference then! I really prefer visual rather than textual cues because they make everything a lot more straightforward. I’d imagine that after 200 body mods to search through, the whole ‘which item has alternative skin tones’ will become more tedious. On the long run (because we know that if we are allowed to, multi-skin-toned body mods are going to soar) I don’t think just changing the name of the item will be as effective (I personally already dislike the way some of the items are the exact same with a different name, so maybe that’s just my problem from the start!) Anyway, again, that’s just my preference. I think it’s p obvious that everyone else is fine with just the textual cues, so if that’s enough for everyone, why not!

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i completely agree that you wearing a blue shirt vs white skirt is not the same as you swearing a skin tone of your choice s the one available to you. But we both know that if body mods get a submission tweak, somewhere someone is going to try and find loopholes for other items too. Maybe it’s makeup, maybe it’s body features such as body blush / muscles / wrinkles that need to be altered per skin tone. It’s just a tricky one i guess! And well.. approvals have always been a little bit hazardous and sort of try-it-to-see-if-it-works. I really am in favor of inclusiveness (which I agree is something subeta has always openly supported and is great!). We’re just covering different grounds so that we explore what affects what!

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heya! Technically, the HA’s base feature is pretty straightforward to begin with : base color, 2 layers of shading. Not even a highlight anywhere. As long as you have access to all the skin tones, you can color pick easily and yes, it takes 30 seconds to do. I don't even think it would really benefit from batch actions when it's 3 total layers to change (from using actions at work, I find that they're more tedious to set up and only really useful when you repeat the same step a lot. I guess if you do constant body mods it could be useful, as long as the naming convention is always the same to avoid any mishaps. Also not everyone draws witih photoshop! Personally I use SAI n_n )

Back to my initial point : you get faster doing things the longer you make them. It's like how drawing becomes faster : all it means is that experience and repetition kicks in, to a point where you just know what to do and how to do it efficiently.

But I also need to save the overlay x 10 to match all skin tones. Is it a 5-ish minute total extra, quite possibly yes. I do however want to bring out the point that it is still extra work, no matter how small. If I have to add sparkles on a wig, or do a three-tone gradient or rainbow streaks, well it’s the same thing, it takes extra time and it is an extra cost. Because in-between the streamlining process of doing recolors, I need to break the pattern to add those extra details and make those extra files. All I want to say is that it’s not so much a question of how short or how long it takes. From the moment you ask for something that is not just a recolor of what already exists, then I don’t think it is unreasonable to consider it an extra.

Should there be bundles? I hope so, both from submission point and from artist points! I’m not saying each skin tone should be worth an entire recolor of its own of course. But I firmly believe as an artist that it shouldn’t just be taken for granted either!

(I know im nitpicking on this detail a lot, sorry! It's just that every single field will always be challenged with their own version of 'it only takes 5 extra minutes'. And I feel the need to defend it a little bit!)

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I have this really bad habit of posting and then re-editing 10 times as my thoughts finally make sense, im sorry!

You're welcome! It's a discussion I've wanted to have for a while purely on the inconvenience of posing for body mods, but your thread gave me another aspect of the problem to chew on and the motivation to get this thread going. ^_^

I 100% agree that there are workarounds to make the process of recoloring easier and fairly quick. Even with my less technical method, I can imagine less than 10 minutes to get all the color variants tidily made and exported. I'd be happy to work up or help with a tutorial of some kind if it makes the process less intimidating to other artists. Doing recolors can be super tedious, so I understand any hesitation about it, but in a perfect world everyone would have access to a color variant that they want!

You're absolutely right that very few, if any, dark-skinned body mod variants have been released in the past. It's very hard to find any particular mod in even more than one shade, mostly because of lack of demand and the sheer cost of submitting recolors - most releasers learned that quick soon after body mods became allowed. Since multiple skintones, as a rule, aren't being commissioned as recolors now, as you said, I agree it wouldn't affect recolor sales in that way. I could, however, see the overall number of recolors (as in for the wearable itself, not the skintone) in general for body mods going down, if commissioners have to pay a significantly higher amount per recolor to account for the skintones. However, I think it'd be a net gain overall for transformables/multiple skintones to be allowed, so I guess we'd just have to see what the impact would be, economically???

Here, here! It'd be amazing on so many levels to be able to create whatever poses we like! I love body mods but feel so constrained with always having to cover the hands. My only attempt at a transparent hand ended up being a layering failure, so I haven't tried that again. weep

I'm glad to hear that you would feel more motivated to commission/release mods if this new feature came about! And I like your idea about separating transformable body mods into its own category. I could see submitting a transformable body mod being a flat price of 3000 CSC, and with the ability to submit up to x number of skintone recolors at the time of submission. I think the cost would be reasonable in that the site is getting an increased payment, yet it's not so high that making a profit for releasers would be impossible. I would think submitting all the colors at once would both make for easier slotting and for a smoother transition through the queue.

[edit] oh hai I didn't see you there XP

You have a lot of good points and I'm glad your voice is here! As a designer by trade I'm sure you hear "it'll only take a minute!" alllllllll the time, and I can understand why you'd want to hone in on that. It would definitely take more time and energy to create additional colors, even if it's just a few additional minutes. I can't help but worry that this might effect you in particular, because you're a very popular artist and you do a large number of recolors. I can see your hesitation if you end up with a batch of 20 recolors, and having to do 10 skintones per recolor on top of that - it's a lot. I just have to reiterate that if a transformable option becomes available, it should definitely be up to every artist to choose whether they have the energy to take on body mods at all, and if they want to charge extra for them. I think it's totally reasonable! And like, if someone loves your work and wants to commission you, I think they'd be willing to pay whatever you think is fair. If they don't then I guess they don't really love your work all that much!!

Oh and also I wanted to point out 's idea for a new color of star for transformable CWs, instead of the gold star that normal CW items have. That would be a visual cue for transformable items that wouldn't involve us having to have a different CI for every color! 🎉

ahah hi buddy!

I really like the suggestion of a new color of star, personally! Maybe having like.. the gold star + a second tiny item that represents interchangeable in some way - this would be a visual cue that would work well! (or just a different colored star. OR AN ANIMATED STAR!!)

I feel like everyone thinks I'd charge $40 for doing 10 skin tones when it would probably be a few bucks only lol Also, we're having this great conversation and I don't really do body mods to begin with :P (makeups yea, if we had to adapt makeups then I'd probably be in for 20 years adjusting those! I'm also horribly nitpicky with everything and can spend 15 mins just toning everything correctly. I'm not efficient because im too picky QQ)

But now that you mentioned it, it is true that if I had a recolor bundle of 10+3 items, in which each one of them required all 10 skin tones well.. I'd certainly tear up a little bit lmao

I understand and respect why you're defending that point! I do illustration for a living and I absolutely know that work is work and time is money. My own point was not that artists should work extra for free – artists will and should charge based on the amount and/or intricacy of the work involved, and extra work incurs extra charges. In the hypothetical scenario where transformable body mod CWs exist, I hope that nobody would be asking artists to do extra work for free. (There would also never be any requirement for artists to take body mod commissions at all, of course.)

My point was simply to say that if the extra time/work and related extra costs of transformable body mod commissions were high enough to make creating or commissioning them a stretch, I would be willing to put together tips & tricks on how to optimize speed/efficiency for artists who end up sinking a lot of time into file/layer setup/management and recoloring skin tones for each item. Frankly I don't know if the time/work/money costs would even get high enough to warrant that, but I wanted to put it out there nonetheless. My primary concern is to find ways to make CWs more race-inclusive, because I think there are quite a few problems in that regard, so that's where I'm coming from with all of this. I don't want anyone to work for free or to take others' work for granted, by any means!

(Also, definitely true that not everyone uses PS! Batch actions are the only tool I mentioned that requires Photoshop, and there are many shortcuts and efficiencies that can be used in other programs. This stuff would still be a time investment, of course, I just think it could be mitigated to some degree.)

EDIT: Oops I took too long to type up a response again and missed your reply, haha! I think you're right that there might be fewer recolors for the wearables themselves when it comes to body mod items, and that there may be other unforeseen economic impacts. Personally, I'd be more than okay with fewer wearable recolors if it meant that more skin tones were available, though I recognize that not everyone would feel that way. It's definitely a complex question with many variables!

Also, thank you for being willing to help with a tutorial if this ever becomes a thing! Making the process less intimidating to artists who want to take body mod commissions would absolutely be my goal with that.

Sorry if this is rambly I just got off of work and it’s way too hot out:

As the accidental creator of the transparent hand CW technique I AM SO ONE MILLION PERCENT in favor of this idea. Every body mod with a transparent hand is like a puzzle of wits and while it’s fun, some just plain don’t work, but I believe that avatars of every skin tone (or at least base 1-10, Sorry aliens) deserve to have lovely body mod CWs.

I would gladly throw in skin tone variants of recolors free of charge* (as long as a customer let me know they wanted them off the bat) if staff would allow for transformative body mods, especially at no additional upload cost. Maybe it could like ONLY be done at the point of upload (so if I upload like a red hoodie I have to make all 10 bases then or else I can’t add it later, I’d have to do a different colored hoodie) or on the other hand, it could work similar to the “recolors of X item” mechanic?

Either way this is something I’d absolutely adore seeing. This is good discussion and a great idea.

*edit: I’m not implying every artist should do this as it is a lot of extra work, but I’m just throwing in my two cents that it’d be worth it for me personally. And if I got a lot of requests I’d probably do like an overall “body mod commissions with multiple skin tones will not be subject to bundle discounts” or something

Yeah, I definitely think for ease of submission and of finding later, they need to have their own category and pricing scheme and also have something clearly visible on the CI that denotes them as special custom wearables (obviously differently colored star or star + some other symbol in the opposite corner or something). That would definitely help with immediate recognition of the item being transformable and also help ease concerns of folks who buy one assuming it would be, and then discover it isn't etc.

It's not up to CW artists or releasers to manage the problem you're bringing up though, it's up to staff to set rules and enforce them.

This isn't an argument of "If A is allowed, so should B" it's "If A is allowed so should Square." They're not the same thing and if staff makes an option for transformable or even just cheaper submissions on body mods with skin changes, the first COLOR of that item, still costs the normal price and so does every RECOLOR after. The argument here is that a change of skin color ONLY is effectively NOT a recolor, it's an issue of accessibility.

We as artists / releasers will need to respect staff if they choose to help on the issue of skin tone body mods, but not recolors. And as has said earlier, staff has said that approving recolors takes the same effort as a normal item, so we have to understand that and accept that staff need to be paid fairly, just like you and I as artists need to be paid fairly.

(as usual ill be editing 123123 times cus i can't form thoughts correctly)

I never disagreed with that, but what I do think is that the skin tone option opens a door to a much larger discussion too. Not once did I disagree that skin tones should be accessible to all and available at lower / no additional cost as being interchangeable. Maybe I'm reading your tone wrong, but you make it sound like I'm against it, when im not!

Yes, it's not up to us to manage this problem, but how else are we supposed to get a clearer picture and hope for a more balanced mechanic if we don't bring all the aspects of the problem up! Personally I'd be a bit miffed if staff decided to change the skin tone option without any regards to any of the other discussions or points that were raised. Not only should skin tones be integrated, but there's also the matter of how they'll be integrated. It might be a model that could be transposed to other type of items, I don't think they should be ruled out necessarily.

We also don,t know if staff has any plans / can actually tweak the way recolors work. It's their decision of course, and there's always a solution somewhere. I never said they shouldn't be paid fairly, the way you and I as artists are paid fairly. But look at how the market evolved - we're nowhere near the way it was back 6 years ago. We have mechanisms that no longer work out well and that everyone depicts as being unfair and too costly for our economy. I'd think it's worth atleast a discussion!

I don't think you're against it, I just think that your concerns are different than mine, right?

I feel like the topic here is inclusiveness, and you're talking about other issues (which are, understandably, important to you). I do agree those issues are important (recolor prices, etc) but I think they detract from the actual issue that is being brought up. These other issues could be their own board and not take away from the importance of the one being brought up here.

if this thread is 100% about skin tones only and nothing else, then yes I guess my concerns are different than yours. But I think that broaching the subject of interchangeable skin tones in itself can be expanded to how they work out in our current economy. It doesn't seem so far off either.

Frankly, I don't know who would come here and say that they're against skin tone inclusivity either. Just like we're all different humans, our HAs should reflect this as well, it would be pretty damn ridiculous to start a debate on why 'base 1 and 2 should be the only ones used' :/ If it's just about 'who is in favor of', shouldn't this be in the suggestion forum where everyone votes in support of the idea?

for some reason I imagine this uhm... flashy rainbow sidebar when we reach quest-a-thon but as an interchangeable star icon!

I'd be okay with basically anything that made it clear that it was a CW but was a special type of CW. I can't remember the quest-a-thon bar but like, I'm all for it haha.

Also I definitely think this should be in the suggestions forum or the CW discussion forum - maybe can ask staff to shift it to one of them? I think she just wasn't sure on where to pop this so the folks who'd be interested in discussing and hoping would find it (staff usually finds our CW discussions here, but this could definitely benefit from more average users getting to put in their hopes/opinions).

I don't want to make any assumptions since I'm just a participant so I guess the person to ask that question is since she's the thread owner and I don't want to step on any toes!

Yup, I feel the same way. Worth the risk in exchange for the benefits that a transformable option would bring.

Oooh interesting, I didn't know you came up with the transparent hand idea! But yeah, now that body mods have been around a couple of years, I think it's time to expand and refine their presence on site. It could do a lot of good! Thank you for bringing your voice into the discussion, I'm really glad to see a lot of different ideas and opinions! I'm with you in that I think it would be a worthy cause to include all 10 base tones in the cost of a body mod commission, but I do like your idea of limiting it if necessary. And if an artist wants to charge more for the increase on their time, I fully support that as well!

100% agree! I think your idea of a different colored star would be an nice, unobtrusive way to denote the different/special "type" of CW.

Hello hello I'm sorry I haven't commented on this discussion thread between you two, I'm having a hard time parsing through all the various points in everyones' responses. Unless staff decides to make skintone recolors free, I can't really endorse requiring a full set of skin tone recolors for each body mod. While I would hope that releasers would feel encouraged to release as many colors as possible for each mod, I can't in all fairness tell someone to spend their own money doing so. I agree that this is an accessibility issue, and staff should take measures to ensure that staff-created items should be usable by everyone - but I guess it's a little trickier as far as user-submitted items go?

I specifically wanted to hear opinions from other users that are deeply entrenched in the CW market because this would be a big change, and could have effects that I hadn't thought of. For instance, I would be so sad if implementing this made body mods untenable, because I really enjoy them. I was hoping that wiser souls than me could interject their own thoughts, and there's been a great discussion here.

I was hoping to hammer out a solid suggestion/pitch for the idea before posting it on one of the public forums, because I only have loosey-goosey ideas at best and do well with brainstorming in a group. :P Plus, I was really hoping a staff would come in here and hash it out....but I feel too shy to ping them personally! :O

Oops I'm sorry! I think we're all in agreement about what you're saying there (optional implement and not required or anything!) But the confusion I'm having with is if the discussion here should also be about things like basic non-mod recolors and stuff like that, or if that's meant for a different board and a different time! I didn't want to put words in your mouth or anything so I felt you should have the deciding say on that since it's your board n_n