Not getting where some of these newer players got the idea that Subeta isn't a safe space??? Having Reischen and the Major not use "pansy" as a slur anymore is like 120% in-line with how the game's been since Day 1. Like, this place literally exists because Keith made himself and his friends a safe space to be gay and play virtual pets in???? HOW DO PPL THINK THAT BEING MORE PC IS OUT OF LINE, I TELL YOU lmfao

Yep, its right there in the Community Guidelines!

There are plenty of places on the web to be "that guy" - don't be doing it here.

Okay, I'm prepared to get a lot of blocks for this, but I gotta say, I'm an older (~10 years onsite, 27 irl) user, and I can't stand the overly-PC environment around here lately.

More PC =/= automatically better You're sacrificing freedom of speech and expression in the name of "justice." You're wiping characters of personality because it isn't squeaky clean and shiny. Characters can have negative aspects, they can use bad language, or smoke, or drink, or...whatever. That's part of what makes a character realistic. You're sterilizing anything that could ever possibly offend anyone on earth anywhere anytime, and making it effectively less of a safe space. We're at the point where any user can get jumped and raked through the damn coals for daring to wrongthink. (subetaspeaks anyone?) All I've seen from the SJW crowd is drama and whining, and it's ruining this site. We can't have anything fun anymore without someone stirring up shit because they're offended, usually on someone else's behalf. Remember Jaxian? That whole plot got ruined because people assumed Jaxon was gonna stay dead and lost their minds over some "kill your gays" conspiracy. Subeta's at the point where its userbase is impossible to please and 90% of it just has to play quietly in a corner lest they step out of line and get death threats.

Anyway, as tumblr would say thanks for coming to my ted talk.

Freedom of speech doesn't apply in privately owned spaces and there are many ways to write a character who's not "squeaky clean" without the writer being a jerk. Subeta isn't ugly like that and I love the site for it.

I'm old enough to remember when we couldn't talk about certain language and tropes bothering or hurting us anywhere. Talk about ruined fun that was it. Not to get personal, but I'm totally getting personal here, it's nice to have a game to play like this after a long day of dealing with racists and assorted bigots. People can point out problems here without worrying about how admins will react. Like this one. Amber had it fixed with the quickness and I don't know any other site with admins that'd care. More places should be "ruined" this way.

I'm 30 years old and have been on the site for 11 years now, and frankly this is progressing as it always has. People change, society changes, language changes, and thus Subeta is changing. Things that were okay 10 years ago simply aren't okay now. And it costs $0 to adapt instead of being regressive and stubborn and being like "No I won't do this simply because I don't want to and don't feel like it!" That's behavior better suited to preschoolers, not people old enough to be on this site without parental supervision.

Frankly I appreciate that the staff have been fostering the ability to talk to them on an openly public forum, and that they're willing to listen to our suggestions about the site. Again: this place has always been a safe space, since day 1, and thus things on the site NEED to change on the site to allow it to remain a safe space. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Subeta's not a horror game, it's not Vampire the Masquerade or Warhammer40k, it's not some grimdark thing that should require content and trigger warnings (and before anyone starts on that: RATED PG-13 FOR VIOLENCE, LANGUAGE, DRUG USE is a content and trigger warning, so shh, go complain to the MPAA). You shouldn't have to steel yourself before doing Major Drills quests or Battle Quests, or avoid doing them at all, because their language, which now parses as homophobic and/or transphobic, is very similar to how you were abused and bullied for being whatever. Therefore, the staff did the logical thing and just cut the word out. A single word. Not that big of a deal. But you'd think the world ended by some of the player reactions.

Look, my post had very little to do with the Reischen situation itself. While I'll admit I'm not fond of the change (I'd rather see the word replaced to maintain some personality), it was more general frustration with the direction the site's user base has been taking.

I have absolutely no problem with someone saying "Hey this makes me uncomfortable, could we not?" I personally believe people should do more to learn how to handle tough situations, and not expect the world to cater to them, because bad things are going to happen, and you need to know how to handle them. It's just fact. But I would never go out of my way to hurt or offend someone, and I respect every person's right to set personal boundaries.

That said, the userbase...isn't very good at that. That's all I was saying. They wanna play the PC police, and it's turning toxic in a hurry. Before Subetaspeaks closed down, it was constantly filled with literal death threats over the most minute things. It makes me worry, that's all. I love Subeta, I've been here forever and spent way too much real money on it. But lately it feels like it's turning almost extremist leftist.

(P.S. I know my first post was pretty angry, so thanks for the rational response)

Bad things sure do happen! I don't think anyone, anywhere, is trying to argue that they don't, or that we shouldn't have the skillset needed to handle those bad things when they happen. However, Subeta is a pet site. It is not 'the world'. I expect bad things to happen when I'm at my job, or out and about, or to read about them in the news. I don't expect to/want to see that kind of thing on a lighthearted game where many come to relax and have fun, and frankly I see 'bad things happen, you should be prepared!' as a bit of concern-trolling.

Not wanting to see homophobic slurs (and [I]yes[/I], to those who are claiming that 'pansy' is not a slur - it is, just not in North America) or transphobic nonsense in a place like Subeta is not encouraging people to become so sheltered and naïve that they won't be able to handle bad things when they happen. All it is doing is making it a more comfortable place for those who already routinely experience bad things first hand in their every day life to come and relax, and I don't see how that is a bad thing.

That being said, yes, I will admit that sometimes people can take things a bit too far. I understand feeling apprehensive to put certain characters/stories on site because of it (as I sometimes am); I too saw those kinds of posts on subetaspeaks, and I don't think we should be encouraging that kind of behaviour... but it should be dealt with accordingly. Small gestures like removing a slur or changing an inappropriate name of an item doesn't have anything to do with folks (usually young ones) taking purity culture too far.

The most common thing you'd see when a newbie first signed up and posted here was something along the lines of, "gosh, this site is great, you don't have to censor yourself like Neopets!" People would do that! Little asterisks and everything. it would blow their minds when they found out they could say "fuck," In that way, it was certainly less of a safe space than Neo.

As bad as subetaspeaks was, it DID have one thing going for it. No matter how heated or how insulting, you could hash it out in the comments and sometimes even reach an understanding. Like yeah, that was pretty rare, but it was still possible. Meanwhile, if there's even a whiff of a "debate" happening on here, the board is shut down pretty quickly.

It didn't used to be like that.

If you've been here for 11 years then you have to admit the forums aren't as busy as they used to be (and it honestly started happening around the time the Community Guidelines were implemented. I think it just spooked a lot of people. It's easier to not post than risk getting frozen for a nebulous, subjective reason.)

This isn't remotely in defense of keeping a slur around, I just think the negative reaction to removing it is a symptom of people feeling more restricted everywhere else.

Languages evolve. That said, it should be changed.

this is true! When I came back to Subeta after hiatus I was pretty shocked by how quiet the forums had become. think part of it is just the site not being as active, and part of it for the reasons you've stated here. Tbh, even if the debate forums brought out a lot of nastiness in some people, part of me still wishes they were still around. Good discussions could certainly be had there. I also remember when B&C used to be a haven for site drama. That I don't miss so much, haha.

Wasn't suggesting they should. I did put in my comment on the news post that I was ONLY bringing it up because Drills was already being worked on, as a possible consideration for the future. Not sure why people seem to be mistaking it for a demand, I tried my very hardest to put through that I was only mentioning it as an idea, and wondering WHY it was the way it was. Someone did explain, rudely at that, but I frankly forgot about the character profiles that we can read v0v. So I understand WHY it won't get changed and agree.

My original addressing of this is based on the backlash that removing "pansy" is getting, and how people are complaining of this site being "too PC" and a "safe space" when it was literally always the latter and has been since inception, and that acceptability changes over time. The site almost a decade and a half old, language has changed, and things that are considered by the afflicted parties a slur have changed as well.

Not to sound cavalier or anything, but anyone who feels "restricted" or "oppressed" by not being able to use a word considered a homophobic slur in many places other than the US? I don't really mind them not feeling comfortable. If not being allowed to use a word in a slur context (calling someone a pansy vs any other use of the word pansy) is making them feel restricted, then perhaps they need to find a different site that doesn't feel the need to protect us and our right to exist freely and safely without being shamed for how we are.

I sincerely doubt anyone is upset they can no longer use the word as a slur (and if they are, then yeah, fuck 'em) but it's probably just seen as one more thing to add to the pile of things you can't say anymore. I think it's fine it was removed, I just don't think the people against it being removed are automatically bigots (I mean, it certainly wasn't added to the site because it was a slur. Probably just thought it was a colorful way to say wimp.)

I wasn't really here to debate that specific instance though, I just disagree that the site was always a safe space as it's defined today. It was safe in that you could talk about LGBT issues and other topics that would get you banned elsewhere, but the prevailing thought used to be that taking offense was totally on you, and it was nobody's job to handle you with kid gloves. That's definitely changed.

I mean... the definition you give at the end of your post isn't what a safe space is either. Safe spaces have always been defined as a place where you could be LGBTQ+ safely, but has evolved to mean places where folks who are not just LGBTQ+ but other minorities as well including disabled folks can safely be themselves and discuss their issues without interference. This new concept of puppies and bubble machines or whatever is basically spoonfed horsecrap, if you'll pardon me. It's propaganda created by people who are already anti-minority to try to give legitimacy to their position. However, yes, nowadays having a safe space does necessitate things like content warnings and trigger warnings. That's the caveat of having a society wherein we try to provide equity.

Yes, as I stated earlier in my post in this thread, someone explained to me that it's because he admires ballet and ballerines, though they did so in a very rude fashion. I'm still unsure as to why he wears a tutu because those are generally reserved for ballerinas rather than ballerinos and ballerinos have a different style of "skirt" that they wear when they wear one for performances. But without the context of "Drills loves ballet", it came off to at least me and my partner as "stereotypical toxic masculine military CO as portrayed by the late R. Lee Ermey but he's secretly in the closet and wants to do stereotypical feminine things like wear pink tutus and do ballet".

You don't seem to be understanding that "pansy" is absolutely a homophobic slur, just not in the United States. Homophobic slurs by their very definition are hate speech. I'm not quite sure how much more clear that can be made to you before you understand that it is 100% a slur. The USA doesn't get to define hate speech for the rest of the world, we're one country among many.

It's really not that hard to pull a few words from your vocabulary. Why wouldn't you if the alternative is making people feel unwelcome or even threatened?

Personally, I'm more bothered by the general attitude of the vegan festival than I am by "pansy" being changed. 😬

It really makes you wonder why people so desperately want the go-ahead to use insults based on race, gender, gender presentation, sexual orientation, etc, so badly, doesn't it?? Like...the fact that people get outraged over not being able to do so is so screwed up. You don't have the right to say whatever you want in a moderated forum; "freedom of speech" has 1. nothing to do with that and 2. doesn't apply here anyway. It's just a way to dodge the real issue, which is wanting to be cruel for fun and not being coddled for it. Maybe instead of being angry that you can't do that freely, examine why you want to so badly.

I think a lot of people here forget a couple things.

Freedom of speech, in the context of the United States, means that the government and its goons can't arrest you for saying something it doesn't agree with. You can't be imprisoned for having an opinion, and people can pretty much publish whatever they want. (Things get a little wiggly with things like libel and defamation of character, but I can call Trump an asshole, and the cops can't arrest me for that alone.)

Subeta is a private company; as a site, it can set whatever rules it wants. Think of the community guidelines like signs in stores saying they can refuse service to everyone. If Subeta staff decided that today, it's a bannable offense to talk about malamute puppies, then that's legally A-OK! If you're chomping at the bit to talk about malamute puppies, there are no major implications in your life if you need to go to, say, Neopets to do so. Or Twitter.

Beyond that, plenty of first-world countries--Canada, Germany, etc.--don't have as broad-reaching speech protections as in the US. In Germany, throwing up a Nazi salute could get you charged with a crime--and for good reason! Tolerating hateful behavior opens the door for nasty groups to normalize themselves; this is a deliberate tactic used by white supremacists to make themselves seem acceptable.

But I digress--the point is, the conversation about "freedom of speech" doesn't apply to a private company in the first place. If you want to use a site that has free speech with no restrictions, I suppose you could go hang out with the Nazis on Gab and have some friendly debates with them.

I think for this conversation, it makes much more sense to talk about character development and the terms they use. But I mean... ask yourself, what's the scope of Subeta? Companies are interested in profit, and don't want to lose a sale; it's why Target is phasing out blue and pink aisles for boy and girl toys. There's a time and place for media to include characters who spout homophobic slurs, and there are effective and appropriate ways to use those types of characters. Is the goal to be thought-provoking, or are you risking alienating your audience of LGBT users--your customers? If you're writing a book and the characters have no flaws or depth, that's a problem, but Subeta isn't a book. It's a company.

I support what Subeta's doing and don't think it goes too far in the slightest to remove alienating terms and slurs. If anything, it shows that they're listening to users who typically aren't given a platform, and I appreciate that.

Jesus Christ guys I didn't mean it in the strictly legal sense. I just meant generally. I'm well aware of how the law works. Thanks. We can drop that line now.

Guess I'll go back to sitting quietly in my corner since I'm such a terrible person. Cause that was [I]totally[/I] the point here. I'm just a mean old bigot and not somebody who saw 1984 as a cautionary tale, not a how-to guide.

[Edit] Also love the not very subtle jab that we must be Nazis

I never meant to call you (or anyone) here a nazi; I was just pointing out that the sites that DO allow unrestricted speech are populated with them. And that sites can either tolerate that type of hate speech, or not. I also don't think anyone here was calling you a terrible person--just responding to the points you were making. I'm sorry if you're feeling attacked; again, that was genuinely not my intention in my post.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any serious activist claiming that any old word can be a slur. But remember that words do have power--it's why language matters. Slurs in particular hold power because they represent social hierarchies that are built on oppressive structures. It's not the same as calling some rando an asshat or a jerk; the implication behind slurs is that someone is worth less BECAUSE of an immutable identity they hold (such as race/sexuality/etc.).

And regardless of whether Subeta uses pansy in a LGBTQ sense or not, that doesn't change the fact that the word is used to refer to queer men (more info on that history). Like, Weird Al used "spaz" without realizing that it's a slur in the UK on the same level as r*tard, and he still apologized for it. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, and using language that doesn't hurt people can be done alongside making other important changes. Like, I can still fight for my right to change my sex marker on my license without a doctor's permission AND I can learn to be kinder and more thoughtful. No person or organization has to choose one or the other.