Eh, it's cool. Kinda reinforces my point though. You never know what's gonna offend somebody, so you have to second guess everything you say. I guess the reason I feel so strongly about this is cause I already have crazy social anxiety. I literally couldn't sleep after making my first post here because I was so scared to put my opinion out there. It just makes it 1000x worse when I know everything I say is being scrutinized.

You also weren't the person that sparked my "terrible person" comment. That was about that post on the last page that said clearly the only reason for this debate is cause we want to be able to be "cruel for fun". That's pretty messed up and extremely dismissive, and pissed me the hell off.

I didn't say anything about puppies or bubble machines. Oh, is it because I said "kid gloves?" That doesn't refer to actual children. Nor was I referring to content warnings. I was still talking about the fact that topics tend to be closed far sooner than they used to be, simply because 1 or 2 people start getting a little heated.

It's a weird shunning/intimidation tactic that ultimately disillusions people, and I'd say it does way more for white supremacy movements than any of their garbage propaganda ever could.

Idk, it just seems that's how discourse is everywhere nowadays, not just here. One side assumes the other doesn't want them safe and wants to hurt them and the other side assumes their speech will be suppressed and that their opponents want to take their freedoms. It's very difficult to get them to come down from their extreme sides and just... speak to each other as people.

That's not what I was asking. Removing a few words from your vocab takes very little effort. Why wouldn't you when using them makes others feel unwelcome or threatened?

"It's a weird shunning/intimidation tactic that ultimately disillusions people, and I'd say it does way more for white supremacy movements than any of their garbage propaganda ever could." Nah, if someone's going to go pick up a tiki torch and join the KKK because they're not allowed to say this word or that word without people shunning them then they were already on the way. Insinuating that we can blame this on marginalized people finally speaking up for themselves and trying to kick out bigots is pretty awful and not something I expected to read from a staff member here.

If you truly think I want to blame the marginalized then I think you've completely misunderstood my entire post. There's a big difference between someone saying, "I would prefer this word is removed because it's not appropriate" and "If you think this word SHOULDN'T be removed, you are probably a bad person."

The first sentence is a request and it's absolutely fine to make! But people should also be able to respond that they aren't comfortable with speech being removed just on principle without that making them bigots. In this case, the request was honored, and that's great for the people who wanted it. Clearly, there are people who still want to talk about it and the implications it might have in the future. That second sentence is the kind of attitude that wants to stop the conversation from happening, and it's going to drive people away because they don't want to risk being seen as a bad person because they have the wrong opinions, and I think that's a shame.

(one last thing, when I say it does more for supremacist groups, I'm not just talking about membership. I'm also talking about the fracturing of political parties that would be opposing these groups. People refrain from voting because of group in-fighting or they no longer feel their views are welcome, that sort of thing.)

That's not really any better or different though. It still boils down to "if you're not nice about this you're just helping the real bigots".

We literally can't be polite enough in our criticisms. Like here I ask why someone would continue to use words they know hurt others and then it's "In this very topic there are posters slyly insinuating that only the bad people would use the mean word, because why would a GOOD person ever use the mean word?" just dramatic as if I said something ugly to her. What could I have said instead? Something somehow less aggressive than asking her to explain or maybe examine her opinion.

That part of my post wasn't referencing your post, I think the way you asked your question was fine, really. (though... I shouldn't have referenced vocabulary later in that post, ironically I think I mentally lumped your post in with a different one!)

I also just... don't think it's an issue of being nice. It's just, don't come to an argument already decided that your opponent has the worst moral character because they've taken the stance opposite yours. Unless that stance is like, literal pro-genocide, but then you probably aren't arguing that on a petsite.

“SJW” thread lmao. I didn’t think Subeta user base would be the type to argue about things becoming “too pc.” So people don’t want to see a fictional character being abrasive in ways specific to gay or trans bullying, and suddenly we are living in a 1984 dystopia? You are just as bad as the “sjws” you’re arguing against. And you’re ending the convo saying you’re running back to your corner for speaking out, as if nobody is allowed to debate your points? How is comparing subeta to 1984 less ridiculously dramatic than comparing jerks to nazis?

Staff can find a way to keep personality and character while not including offensive stuff. They’re creative and considerate and practical people. So seriously can we stop this? Let people make their comments without blowing it out of proportion. Honestly this kind of stuff isn’t even about social justice, it’s just how stuff gets blown out of proportion online because it only takes one person making a sarcastic comment or rude gif to set the whole thing off. Under our so beloved freedom of speech we are allowed to ask about and question things that might not be great, and we are allowed to debate any points brought up, and the response of “stop being so PC” is also a way to shirk the actual conversation instead of addressing the specific issue. So can we stop making this about sides and discus the actual issues people are bringing up, whether or not they get changed in the end?

Okay, just off the top of my head, in the past month we've had: a thread complaining about the wifebeater item a thread complaining about the new item that references moonmoon a thread about the bowl of ebola item drama in the news post of the moon man item drama about Reischen's use of "pansy"

And you guys don't think that's maybe pushing it a little bit too far? That's just in the past month.

Also, yeah, I stand by my 1984 comparison. You're literally telling us in this thread to drop words from our vocabulary. Sounds pretty fuckin' on point to me. It's not full-blown big brother, but some of you would sure like it to be. And no, I'm still here and willing to debate anyone who wants to actually talk. But if you just write me off as an asshole that thinks cruelty is fun, then I ain't wasting my time on you. That post was directed specifically at that user, as I've already said.

Staff also didn't bother to keep any character; they just deleted the word and sanitized the sentence. He could call him a weakling, a "trainer" or anything else. But then that'd be ableist or something I guess. [Edit] Here's the thing. Not using certain words on a pet site: fine Not calling people slurs: also fine, duh Erasing words from our vocabulary: very much not fine. To me, pretending those words don't exist just means erasing the pain and struggles of anyone who's been hurt by them. If I pretend the n-word doesn't exist, then it can't have ever hurt anyone right? It's erasing history. It makes it so people affected by it now can't talk about it. And yes again a pet site is not the appropriate place for it and I'm not arguing that. But dropping words from our vocabulary crosses another line entirely.

Hi. I have nothing to contribute to this thread but this year was shit so let me hit the glass on this bar table a bit.

I don't mind Subeta being a "safe space", each place has their characteristics; my problem is the userbase and how they react - like it's something personal, they are the voice of reason, and the person had the intention of being offensive even though it's fucking obvious 99.9% of the cases they didn't, and yet some people will phrase things in a way to make the "target" feel as bad with themselves as possible - and lots of times it does feel it's on purpose -, for doing nothing. As someone with autism I have much, much bigger problems but it still sucks that the 10s culture makes even harder for me to say 'hi' because "in 1276, Russia, a group of 5 people used this word as a slur for this minority group, please change yourself for my sake" I respect the site and those people, I just want to feel respected too, if you felt offended say it, but without being an asshole and depreciating others and molding them to your convenience. For once try to see things outside the "poor you" and "your discriminated group". From my point of view Subeta (and not here exclusively ofc) is a Hugbox - for any vocal minority that can get their way by throwing as many "ism" and "phobia" and shit as possible at whoever doesn't agree with them, but for those that don't fit on those group [the social part of] this place can be a nightmare.

Anyway, this is coming from someone with almost zero social experience and a disorder so I'm conscious this is a very distorted point of view. [sub]Bye[/sub]

Not going to say much on this topic, just my two cents worth - there’s a fine line between inappropriate/disrespectful and overly sensitive, not thinking before you speak vs sensorship/oppression, being “mean” vs growing thicker skin.

There are billions of people in this world that are shaped by their environment, family, friends, religion, and community. Not everyone thinks the same way or has to think the same way (that’s the beauty of free will). Life is not always easy so you need to learn how to deal when things don’t go your way.

Here's another example. The word, faggot, is an archaic word for bundle so you can have a faggot of sticks. In Britain, faggots are a kind of meatball and you can buy them in supermarkets. If I called a man a faggot, though, I wouldn't be calling him a bundle of sticks or a meatball.

The shortened form of faggot is fag - this can mean a cigarette in British slang. I smoke fags but if I called a man a fag I wouldn't be calling him a cigarette.

Then there's this - Guatemalan Air Force

I was replying to Quentin's comment -

I was pointing out that it's unlikely that Subeta would ban a pet or user called Pansy because it's a genuine girl's name. It would also be unlikely to ban this item which can be bought at Esther's shop.

[item2=Giant Pansy Beanbag]

Both of these are very different to how the word was used in the Major Drill's quest. I see it's been removed and I agree with the change.

Faggots are a kind of meatball in Britain and you can buy these in British supermarkets.

Mr Brain's Pork Faggots

This is the wikipedia article about the food. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food)

At the end of the article there's a heading called Double Meaning which has two bits of information.

I agree it was right to ban this advert because of how it used the word - it was an offensive joke.

Now to cigarettes. This is an article dated 4th August 2018 in one of Britain's biggest selling newspapers.

POUND A PUFF Packet of fags could cost £20 by 2020 because cigarettes ‘are too affordable’ to deter smokers

There were a lot of comments but they were all to do with smoking and cigarettes. Nobody complained about the word fags being used in this context.

100% in agreement here.

1. Change the language.
2. Put a filter on the word.
3. Problem solved.

I don't mean to sound insensitive but I kind of find /debating/ this word sort of superfluous. I like Subeta because not everything is filtered. It used to be an open space and forgiveness over words was easier to come by. Everyone in 2018 is offended by everything which is our individual prerogative. I can't keep up with what I should be offended about (as a 31 year old cis female that's been on Subeta for 14 years, ya know, while we're referencing our age and userdom which offends me and makes me feel old[jk]).

(Alternatively we could take The Office's win/win/win approach to troubleshooting and print the word on a t-shirt, the people offended can wear the t-shirts, and the people not offended will see them but the people not offended can see the t-shirts. Win/win/win. )

Situations like this are always wild to me. Like, one group is being hurt by something and they want it removed. Another group that is not being hurt by it and isn't benefiting from it wants it to stay... because... they want it to stay? like? what? lol

I'm a cis female who is nearly 70 and I've also been on Subeta for 14 years. I have no problem at all with Major Drills being tweaked so he no longer calls questers pansies.

Should the use of the word, pansy, be banned in all contexts and all the pansy items in Esther's shop be renamed something like viola or melanium? This would be silly because Esther is married to Emma of Seedlings so she'll hardly be selling pansy items as some kind of insult to Jaxon and Ian.

I've never suggested that faggots should be added as a Subeta food item because I suspect it would make a lot of users who aren't British feel uncomfortable. A very closely related food item over here is Savoury Duck so that would be OK. The British pudding called spotted dick could be problematical, however.

Subeta has a range of souvenir fanny packs from the Councilors Cruise event. We call them bum bags over here - I'm guessing we use a different name for them because the word, fanny, is vulgar British slang for the female genitals. I'm not going to complain, though because I loved the BBC comedy Are You Being Served and the way Mrs. Slocombe referred to her cat. :D

If thinking "wifebeater" is a horrible name for a shirt makes me an oversensitive "SJW", then I guess that's what I am!

(I really can't believe "SJW" is being thrown around without irony on the site now.)

The original name referred to what is called the Rolling Pin Of Doom trope.

The page gives many examples from movies, literature, theatre and jokes etc.

I looked up the history of the wifebeater. It's complicated because domestic violence occurred for thousands of years before tank tops were invented.

This is just my personal opinion. There seems to be a bit of a double standard here. The name of an item relating to the old trope of women hitting husbands with a rolling pin (domestic violence) was changed but the name of an item relating to a man beating his wife to death wasn't. There are two options -

1. Change the name of the Stained Wifebeater clothing item to Stained Tank Top or

2. Restore the original name of the Attitude Adjuster.

PS Is the Rolling Pin Of Doom trope outdated? Here's a report from a Spanish English language newspaper dated 27 September 2018

Woman allegedly stabs and beats husband to death with rolling pin while he slept

@ Allegria I'm not making this personal. I'm not saying, if you complain about anything you're automatically an SJW. It's not any one of those examples that's the problem. It's all of them together, and in such a short frame of time. It's starting to feel like there's no space left for any kind of thought that isn't pre-approved by the (seemingly perpetually) offended side.

Look, I could type a wall of text here and explain every nuance of my position and it wouldn't matter one bit. Clearly some of you only want to jump in and tell me how I'm a horrible person and you're just so morally superior. But I'm gonna do it anyway. Be warned that it has nothing to do with Subeta, I'm talking about things on a much larger scale here.

Anyway, that's all I got. If you read all that and still think I'm just an asshole, then I give up. [edit] Now I've said my piece, I think I'm gonna bow out of the thread. I'm dragging it terribly off-subject. But if anyone would like to continue this discussion, I'll happily respond to mails or comments. Merry Whatever-you-may-celebrate, y'all.