I don't think you're derailing the thread. This topic is for suggestions relating to a transgender character so, in my opinion, one of the things that needs to be sorted out is how it would fit into the fictional Subeta world. In order to make Jim, for example, a realistic transgender person there have to be some questions answered. Mine are -

1 - Why don't Sex Berries work on humans and why can't the Old Wizard adapt one to work on a human?

2 - Why can't Euclid adapt his zapper to change a human's gender?

Would anyone go through surgery if there were alternatives?

If people hate the idea of more humans arriving from Earth there could always be Earth style medical treatment in a hospital we don't know about yet.

Just my opinion, but I think it would be really cool if Jim and Sarah were trans. Or maybe Jim and Shinwa being trans?

You know, I think the problem is honestly that trying to please everyone ends in failure. It's just not possible to please everyone with what you do; someone's going to complain or be upset no matter what. If there's someone who supports something, you can bet that there is someone who is against it. That's how diverse the viewpoints are of any large community; it's going to be like that for any topic to be honest. Some people complain just because they want something to complain about / start drama over, and nothing you do is going to stop that. You can take preventive measures, but in the end, there will ALWAYS be someone who disagrees.

If Subeta were to only cater to the majority of opinions, then it does kind of erase minority representation, which is the whole point of including transgender or LGBT+ characters, to show that diversity / variety. Because our voice is NOT heard as often; LGBT is a minority no matter how you look at it. So even though some people may start drama, it's important to show representation of any minority group. That's how you educate people; how can people otherwise know their actions are harmful, if they don't even know about that kind of a group? Sure there's going to be people who just don't care about others / don't want to change, but some people are hurtful about the LGBT+ community without even realizing it / are just ignorant. Everyone has room to grow; it's about giving them the opportunity to.

Maybe there can be a place like this in Shengui Guo, since we literally know almost nothing about it or its culture so far (I mean aside from the fact that it's obviously Asian-based). This would also support the idea of a new NPC being transgender coming from Shengui Guo as well.

A transgender NPC coming from Shengui Guo might be the best idea. As the land had been hidden away from the rest of Subeta it would explain why its inhabitants didn't have access to Sex Berries or Euclid's zapper.

I'm personally not usually a fan of retrofitting existing characters with back stories that they didn't honestly have before so personally I'd rather have a new NPC than changing the existing backstory of a current one.

In that vein I'd rather have a new NPC with a trans backstory rather than having to change the backstory of Jim's when such a backstory was never present in the first place.

That said, in regards to trans admittedly I can't comment on that being cisgender, however I do agree that a trans character from Shengui Guo could work. Chinese martial arts mythology notably has character gods, as well as regular people who can be in any number of forms or in the case of regular non-God people dress up as the opposite sex so a trans character would fit in perfectly with that particular mythology.

How passing is passing, if that makes sense? I've drawn, uh, non-trans characters and had them mistaken for individuals of another sex. Like one person thought a female OC of mine was male and then proceeded to recommend that I 'improve' her my making her nose smaller when corrected; sort of like how people here said Malaria and Shinwa 'looked like men in drag' because of their features. And as far as I know, they're as cis as alien physical gods can be.

I hope that wasn't gibberish or offensive. It's late here. (I'm also kinda asking because my pet and OC Yinglong is ftm, so I've been wondering how to draw him lately.)

That depends: do you want to draw attention to that the character is FtM or MtF constantly? Or go by what their gender is now?

Something else I thought of that I haven't seen anyone else bring up yet: Not all trans people transition in the same ways, or even at all!

Some trans people don't get the appropriate surgeries or go on hormones for a variety of reasons-- medical reasons, financial reasons, or just personal ones. Some people might do one, or the other, or neither, so that's something to consider especially if you're making a new NPC. Not doing either of those things doesn't make someone any less trans, and there are plenty of ways to pass without them.

Just something to consider! I know the usual image of a transperson is one that's post-op and on hormones, but transpeople that don't/won't/can't do either do exist. I've seen quite a few folks bringing up surgical scars and having them be visible as a visual cue to the NPC's transness, but transpeople without them are just as valid an option.

How passing is passing, if that makes sense? I've drawn, uh, non-trans characters and had them mistaken for individuals of another sex. Like one person thought a female OC of mine was male and then proceeded to recommend that I 'improve' her my making her nose smaller when corrected; sort of like how people here said Malaria and Shinwa 'looked like men in drag' because of their features. And as far as I know, they're as cis as alien physical gods can be.

I hope that wasn't gibberish or offensive. It's late here. (I'm also kinda asking because my pet and OC Yinglong is ftm, so I've been wondering how to draw him lately.) I wouldn't consider "draw trans characters as passing always" a hard and fast rule. I've only transitioned socially and don't pass, and there are trans people who can't/don't do HRT or surgery and don't pass, and I always find it a little disheartening that people only want to depict the "finished product", so to speak. Physical transition is a long and winding road with a lot of grey areas, and dysphoria is different for everyone.

A different guideline to follow might be "draw a character how they would feel most comfortable at that time in their life" -- how would they dress, or do their hair? what steps would they be able to take to alleviate body dysphoria (binding, shaving, falsies, etc.)?

What I think would be cool is to eventually make several trans characters - not just one trans man and one trans woman. You could then have a trans guy who's more traditionally masculine like Jim, and then one who has more of a feminine side. I don't mean just because he's trans, and I don't necessarily mean in physical appearance. I mean like a cis (non-trans guy) also might enjoy dressing more femininely or something like that. And you could also have a more "tomboy" trans woman. A lot of trans women get harassed for not being "feminine enough."

But I do really like the idea of Jim being trans and like said, having his backstory talk about how he started working out to make his body look more masculine and stuff like that. I think it would be great to introduce some new trans characters at some point, but I also think that it's nice to just be like "oh by the way, this current NPC is trans." Because then it normalizes it and it doesn't become the ONLY thing about that character.

I would be careful introducing trans characters to Shengui Guo. Different cultures have different ideas of gender. A lot of them haven't historically had the gender binary that we have in western culture, or the same idea of what "trans" means. To be respectful, I think you would have to do a lot of research about historical ideas of gender and trans/non-binary people in Asian cultures. I would definitely want to make sure you consulted some Asian trans people, specifically, because I can't talk for them as a white person.

I think it would be easier to be respectful by using existing characters or to put new ones in main Subeta (the areas that are more influenced by western culture) rather than Shengui Guo, the Sacred Lands, etc. By putting the first trans character in Shengui Guo, I think it would also make it seem like we're very exotic and newly discovered. I'd rather it be made clear that there have always been trans NPCs on Subeta in general.

What I mean by 'passing' is make them at least not look like someone of their 'assigned gender' wearing drag. Krem and Mae again, are good examples. HRT doesn't exist in their world, but they do a good job at passing despite not quite having the figure or the voice, respectively.

For example, I've seen Isabela (who they headcanoned as mtf), drawn like a stubbly, hairy, manly linebacker in a dress to drive home the fact that in their heads, she's mtf. For Fenris as well, they'll change his proportions and draw art that draws attention to his hips, or they'll show off his cleavage just to drive home the fact that they headcanon him as ftm.

It's that sort of exaggeration that I find really sketchy. What you're doing sounds fine, as not all women have really petite noses.

rah rah

Personally, I think Jim being a transman is fine. As to how he looks? I think that's up to Jim, as it is up to transpeople in real life. Some of them decide to keep secondary sex characteristics prior to transitioning, like Alex Drummond, who is awesome. Some of them want to pass completely and disappear into the cis crowd, and that's fine too. Depends on how the staff wants to write Jim. I think what might be best is to have 2 trans characters, one who wants to disappear into the cis crowd, and another one who's like "I can totally be/look 100% genderqueer". For the former character, they probably think it's rude to mention that they were assigned a different gender at birth, while the latter character would more likely be really chill about it.

As for the new Shengui Guo character suggestion, crossdressing is a trope in some epic legends but that's usually used to fool and trick enemies, not as a sign that the character is trans: identifies as the gender they are dressing as. Confucian influences also probably heavily discouraged trans* notions so drawing on sino-japanese mythos/fantasy is probably not the best way to go about that. Also if anyone is going to mention Disney's Mulan here, wtf? Crossdressing is not trans. Historical/mythological/epic depictions of her don't depict her as self-identifying as male.

As for a diety that (might??) I thought changes gender after his resurrection... as a child, I thought the depiction of Nezha in Journey to the West (1986) (the person who plays him is a woman) was female, as well as post-resurrection Nezha in the cartoon Nezha Conquers the Dragon King (1979) (I believe the voice acting is also done by a woman). The lotus leaf skirt, lotus petal pauldrons, and double hair buns had me reading that as female as a kid. Wikipedia tells me I'm wrong about Nezha changing genders post-resurrection, apparently? The female casting is probably for the depiction as perma-youth?? :/ as far as I know, male youths generally don't have double hair buns

I'm also not very familiar with any Thai cultural stories about kathoey, and would be careful about using that. I'm not sure if that's strictly depicted as a third gender/intersex, and it seems like some of them would not consider themselves trans? I could be wrong about that though.

Honestly, I didn't read all four pages so if anything I have to add has been said before, sorry. I'll do this in bullets b/c it's much easier to read, I think.

1: This is more a grammar thing, but I think it's important to say "a transgender person" rather than just "a transgender" b/c it's an adjective - just one part of who we are - rather than a noun - everything we've ever been and will be. ... I must have misread or mis-remembered the post. Forgive me for that! But I still think it's good future reference because I have seen it happen a lot before out in the world.

2: I don't see it being too much of a big deal to have it be Jim. On one hand, I think it would be nice to have a new NPC out there but not if they're just a background character (i.e. a store owner with little substance). I would have some issue with the character just being thrown into the new area of the map if they're not going to be relatively important. One the other hand, though, making Jim a transgender NCP would be perfectly fine because you wouldn't need to change the background story, like someone else had mentioned, at all, really. I know when I refer to my childhood, I change the pronouns. Especially to people I don't know unless it's imperative to whatever memory I'm telling. So I think that's fine. But I hope that, if it does end up being Jim, that it's not thrown in your face. You can say something in the min-bio, sure, but there's no real reason to show scars. He doesn't need to be shirtless and his scars would be hidden with the shirt he currently wears.

3:I don't think he should be binding unless it's under certain circumstances. People shouldn't wear regular binders when working out unless it's loose or a tight sports bra - something you could do in the art if you so chose but then it should definitely be stated in the bio to give that finite representation. *Binders can restrict breathing and you really need to be able to expand your lungs when you're doing the intensive exercises I assume he theoretically does.

4: The first poster stated that the terminology around birth assignment was problematic but I don't believe it is. I understand that reading "in a female body" can be dysphoric for some, but it's important to compartmentalize and understand that the terms "female/male" have to do with organs and "woman/man/girl/boy" are gender markers and that those are two very different things.

5: This is less on a technical side but some native american groups regard(ed) transgender people as wise and doubly blessed by gods (I believe it was called having two spirits). I think it would be interesting, if you did create a new NCP in the new area, if something similar to this was written into their story especially so because, as a few posters above had mentioned, there were likely people from Earth who came to Subeta and would have brought their cultures along with them. Disclaimer I'm only certain that what I read about was referring to Native American peoples and if saying "groups" is problematic, I'm very sorry. I am not of Native American origin and I've only read about this on the internet. Where I had read it, it wasn't certain if the info had come from someone like myself or from someone that was a part of this belief. Please let me know if this is accurate information.

I don't really have anything useful to add as I'm not transgender and I don't feel it's my place to decide what's best (though I definitely wouldn't be opposed to having both Jim and another transgender NPC since people seem to be at odds about which would be best)

I'm going with the idea already stated of creating a new character from Shengui Guo. I personally hate when people try to change already established characters into something they're not (Jim was not created with being trans in mind so I feel it's forcing him to be something he's not all for the banner of subeta being PC). Having a trans character is great but make them that from the start of their creation and you can have them be the face of the new land introduced. How awesome would that be?

I can't speak for this either, not being trans, but if Subeta decides to pull from Thai culture, as Thailand has several different gender identities within their culture. Admittedly, I don't know a whole lot, but it could someplace to start.

On that note, It's really cool to see Subeta giving full diversity to their characters!

Edit: Since Jim already has a backstory and some people are worried about that, it wouldn't be so bad to have one of the really non-fleshed out NPCs for the shops be transgender. For example, the Icy shopkeeper?

not to get off topic, but i think different people feel differently about that. personally, i feel that using the terms male and female to refer to anatomy is incorrect; there is no such thing as a male or female body, because bodies do not have genders. and yes, male and female ARE gendered terms; i don't think you can separate 'female' from 'woman/girl' and 'male' from 'man/boy'. to say a trans woman is 'male-bodied' or was 'born in a male body' is misgendering, and incorrect. a trans woman is female-bodied. she is female, so she has the body of a female. same goes for any other gender. to imply that 'sex' is different or separate from 'gender' is highly contentious to say the least (sex as a biological reality is… not as straightforward as some would like to believe), and transphobic at worst, because it implies that, even if your gender is male, your 'sex' is female so therefore you're not REALLY 100% male: "oh, i know you're a guy, but i mean, like, BIOLOGICALLY you're female." ever heard that one before? it's true that anatomy does not equal gender, but anatomy is not male or female, either.

ok, to contribute to the actual topic, i think jim being trans could be cool. i don't think he should be shown wearing a binder, as others have mentioned, because, well, you shouldn't bind while working out! and i agree that the idea of 'passing' is very iffy, because not all trans people can/want to 'pass' as cis, and their gender is still valid regardless of their physical appearance - there is no such thing as 'looking' male or 'looking' female.

that said, it would be weird to draw him with breasts, as he's always had a flat chest, so the only remaining option is that he's had top surgery. in his current art, scars would not be visible, but he IS wearing a muscle tank, which are notorious for ridiculously large arm holes that sometimes show the sides of the pecs, so if he were to be redrawn in a different pose you could absolutely give him top surgery scars, but not in such a way that draws huge amounts of attention to it, you know?

i also like the idea of mentioning him starting to work out in his teen years to help him make his body look more how he wanted it to, and i don't think it's necessary to do anything to make him look more 'feminine' (seriously, lots of trans dudes have broad jawlines and full beards and broad shoulders, so there's no reason jim can't retain exactly the amount of 'masculinity' he has now).

also, i just realized he has a heart tattoo above his collarbone… maybe this can be utilized to either represent something about his transition (i.e. he got it after a particular milestone in his transition) and this can be mentioned in his 'pedia article, or the colors can be changed to the trans flag to show pride and support for others.

ALSO also, i would definitely love to see a trans female character, but it shouldn't be like "oh here's a new trans woman character she's trans ok that's it bye." she should be introduced for a reason, like a new feature/shop, and it should be indicated somewhere that she is trans, among other information about her. her purpose shouldn't be to be trans, her purpose should be to host a site feature. heck, you could even take one of the less developed existing characters who host a particularly out-of-date site feature, like the blue building lady, and when her feature gets updated, we can learn more about her as a character, and the fact that she is trans would be included.

the most important thing is to never, ever refer to a trans person as having 'used to' have been their assigned gender. while some people do feel like they actually were one gender, and then became another gender, many feel that, looking back, they really were always their current/actual gender and they just didn't realize it because they didn't have the necessary information, or they were too afraid to identify and live as their actual gender. a trans woman didn't 'used to be' a guy; she is a woman, and always was.

haha sorry i hope that wasn't too ridiculously long :P

[edit]i think also making quentin's pronouns clearer, i.e. stating them on their subetapedia article, would be cool so that people who aren't sure will have a definitive answer, and people who are misgendering them on purpose can feel a little worse about using the wrong pronouns when the right ones are readily available.

As someone who is not transgender, I feel it would be out of place for me to give much in the way of input beyond "This idea is freaking awesome" and "Thank you for wanting to do this!" It's fantastic that you guys would go out of your way to include everyone like this! Thank you!

Also, I just really want to say that I am so super proud of the Subetan community. Everyone who isn't trans is basically saying the same thing: not wanting to weigh in opinions out of respect for actual trans people, but also expressing their support and/or approval of this idea. I find this to be extremely respectful and courteous and I'm just amazed that there are so many people with that mindset here.

I wish the whole world could be full of this much respect and acceptance. :)

(I also see that many people are suggesting introducing a new NPC character based out of Shengui Guo - I also think this is a great idea! Perhaps, since Shengui Guo is supposedly a place of spiritual rest, there might be an opportunity here to shed light on the history of people from the LBGTQIA community. In the most respectful way possible, of course.)

'Passing' is...lets put it this way, its a goal specifically because of transphobia. Yes, most of us seek to pass because of dysphoria and the fact its often triggered by our body parts but that's not 100% all of us and should not be presented as the 'goal' of transitioning. All this obsession with passing does is up our suicide rates tbqh. Now I'm a trans man so I'm going to not go too into trans women stuff because that's not my area and I don't want to say something inappropriate about something I have no personal experience in but I will say this.

NO BINDING TAPE THK U PLZ: I know a lot of cis people don't realize this because its so common in the few bits of media we get but binding with tape can literally kill you as well as severely damage your ribs, skin and breast tissue. I've known numerous people who used these 'ace bandage' and 'duct tape' methods and ended up in the hospital with everything from ripped skin to blood clots. Given how young Subeta's users often are, setting a healthier standard for your trans characters would be appreciated. I'd say provide an actual binder and maybe hip compression underwear.

SCARS ARE GREAT! If handled right.: Many of us suffer from not being able to pass or being fetishized by cis people (especially trans women/trans POC in general) but the stereotype that we are 'born in the wrong body' is just that, a stereotype. These are our bodies, we sometimes love them, often hate them or aspects of them, but what parts of us we show is part of who we are as individuals. For some of us, our 'battle scars' are sources of pride, other's misery. I don't see why giving them to an NPC would be an issue if handled respectfully. Trans people should see representation of us loving our bodies and the changes we go through just as much are we are shown hating them, they're both acceptable and valid reactions to being trans.

DFAB IS A SAFER TERM THAN FtM/BORN FEMALE/ETC.: 'Designated Female(or Male) at Birth' is better terminology, more respectful towards the person as a whole, rather than claiming we're 'changing' into something we weren't already.

DYSPHORIA IS IMPORTANT but not everything: Not all trans people feel dysphoria, or feel it in the same way. For some of us, it's attached to specific body parts, environments or images (I get really uncomfortable with my chest for example, but have much less bottom dysphoria ) and for some of us, its not really there much at all. We just know we're not what we've been assigned and being called otherwise is itself a source of discomfort.

THERE IS NO GENDER BINARY! But also there is.: The Gender Binary is a concept much like race is a concept. It's not concrete reality but its overwhelmingly present in day-to-day life. To write a trans character you have to take into consideration this fact, that even if we don't feel like we /should/ need to dress or act a certain way, we often do for our own safety and security. In the real world, hypervisibility is not usually a good thing (hence why passing is often an unpleasant but necessary goal of transition). On Subeta there may be magic and less bigotry for the NPCs but there's still mostly 'female' and 'male' characters. I'd suggest making sure there is a sign of discomfort with gender there, if not as severe as with RL trans people. Give him or her a support group and make it clear they are valued, exactly as they are and that their transition was for their personal comfort.

YOU DON'T ALWAYS KNOW WHAT CAUSES YOUR DYSPHORIA!: This is the most annoying part of being trans for me, it took me 19 years to realize that's what it was. Dysphoria isn't always instinctively knowing why your stomach is flipping and you feel anxious and even nauseated. It's often just this awful buzz in your brain that makes you upset for no reason you can pin down. My mother used to talk about me hitting puberty and having babies someday and I'd get physically ill even thinking about that because something in my head knew that wasn't the course I was comfortable taking but with no input as to why. The same thing happened every time someone called me my birth name or referred to me as 'she.' It just /felt/ wrong. If you pick Jim you can certainly include him exploring causes of discomfort (including wondering about species) and ultimately realizing it was connected to gender all along. The 'I knew since childhood' thing happens sometimes but not for all of us.

THERE'S NO REASON Y'ALL SHOULDN'T USE AN ALREADY PRESENT NPC FOR THIS: We don't walk around handing out business cards reading 'HELLO MY NAME IS: Trans.' I can promise you you have all met at least one trans person in passing who WAS passing and you couldn't 'tell' was trans. Jim is cis because it's assumed he's cis, but he's fictional and his gender isn't some set in stone concept. There's no reason he can't be trans and explore his background as a trans person if you do so respectfully with input from actual trans people.

Here's some links that might be helpful: http://srlp.org/resources/trans-101/ http://www.tranarchism.com/2010/11/26/not-your-moms-trans-101/ http://www.transpeoplespeak.org/trans-101/ https://www.youtube.com/user/TransDIYer

Here's some good reading featuring books by actual trans peeps on our experiences, if you're really invested): http://www.amazon.com/Redefining-Realness-Path-Womanhood-Identity/dp/1476709130 http://www.amazon.com/Gender-Outlaw-Men-Women-Rest/dp/0679757015/ref=pd_sim_14_11?ie=UTF8&refRID=1EFE3RPMY6T97848M94S

Thailand would be a great place to start. Admittedly, I don't know much about the culture except in passing either as I'm Chinese and not Thai.

I know there's also the mahu in Polynesian Hawaiian culture which are seen as being gender-fluid and being neither and both genders.

As for Jim. I honestly wouldn't mind, as mythology stated earlier, having one of the less fleshed out characters and giving them a trans backstory. Their backstories are essentially a blank slate and truth is, I think it would be interesting to give some of the characters with less well-known stories a backstory in general.