Testing: NPC Reputation & Quests
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Ha! I also can confirm, after decades of believing in randomness I have found out, that I get a Quest Point on exactly every 5th quest! rofl
And now, that somebody told us - I tricked that BB Lady, did 4 of her quests and then somebody elses, so got (compared to other days) an "extra" QP! blush ...unbelievable I wasted 365 QP per year, when I so direly need them, that's a full bunch of seasonal books!
...we already have the Blue Building, where you have to reach ranks in order to see items of higher value... is that what you want for the Quest Shops, sort of?
P.S. on Quest Points - somehow it broke on Saggi and the Library, which I did last. The very last quest, should end with a quest point if I do all quests (15x9 plus BB). I had not done any Library for Shinwa, so I should have gotten 1 on 5, 10 and 15 from Saggi and Library... weird...
Another thing - a lot of people i’ve talked to, and myself included, might have a bit of a hard time adjusting to the big kumos changeover. We need a constant, something to make us feel comfortable enough to be optimistic and open to the huge change, something that makes subeta still feel like subeta. The more fundamental parts of the site that are drastically changed like this, makes it harder to me to really be optimistic about the thought of a lot of us staying and giving kumos a chance. u___u Just my opinion. I can’t speak for everybody…and if you aren’t one who has a hard time adjusting to change, more power to you. But a lot of people i’ve talked to feel the same way i do about kumos - they’re worried, but willing to give it a try hoping that the change won’t be too much of a shock. Altering too many critical parts of the site might lead me to spend a lot less time here. Worst case, my interest is completely lost, as was the case with other sites who underwent a massive overhaul in the past. And i don’t want that. T__T
✨my most wanted - i need these things more than i need air ✨ 🎀 https://subeta.net/wishlists.php/472547/308908">if i ever find these pretty things i will cry happy tears 🎀
I usually don't post on stuff like this as I find it very intimidating to give my opinion, but I really have to echo what others have said here hoping the ideas would be reconsidered if more people voiced their opinion...
I'm not a fan of the reduced quests at all. I've always found quests to be a relaxing mindless task I can do while listening to music and daydreaming. Finishing them also gives me a sense of achievement. Some days I don't do all of them and sometimes I have to skip them entirely, but it's not like this ever made me wish we had less of them. The activity of doing quests is one of the unique aspects I find in Subeta as all the other sites I've played don't/didn't have something similar.
I'm also not too fond of QPs going away or of changing the way the Quest Shop works. It never bothered me that buying items takes you to a new page either. Clicking is part of the charm to me. It could be just me, but I prefer having to click on more buttons to easily finishing everything in a single click.
I do think the idea of reputation is exciting, but I'm not sure how to feel about it being implemented in quests. I think I'd prefer it being used in other site features.
I'm definitely someone who has a hard time adjusting to change in real life, but at least in some aspects I can say I don't immediately jump to conclusions over new changes. I like having the mentality of wanting to give new things a try and having hope it will turn out to be better than before in the end. That said, I'm honestly getting increasingly concerned over several of the proposed new changes, especially now with quests potentially getting affected. It feels like things that are good, even perfect as is, are getting unnecessarily overcomplicated, when we already have other features that could use a change. I don't wanna start having the mentality of, "enjoy the site as it is now before it's changed to something entirely different", but after reading the OG post here I can see myself getting closer to thinking this way. :c
(English isn't my first language so I apologize if I made punctuation mistakes/said something weirdly)
Is Kumos broken? Since there is no link to the quests I tried to go via wardrobe/avatar borders, then dug out the old MM news to get to the site, then simply copy/pasted https://kumos.subeta.net, which added "news" itself and I'm on a fairly blank white page on all 3 addresses. Everything is HUGE - "Subeta" on Top, squares with Subeta, Social, Commerce Cash Shop, You and my UN on the left, each with a down arrow. I can hover them, it'll each show me the same as our regular top border drop down menu. On the news Page I have bombastic circles with an "L" or a 3 o'clock watch followed by the Pet Spotlight and then Riftborn Escalade news, each followed by the Avatar Picture of Subeta Team plus one of their head.
I really would have wanted to take a look at those quests...
weekend notes: addressing feedback and clarifying testing goals
hey everyone! it’s the weekend, so i’m not working much, but i wanted to address a few points that seem to be taking up a lot of space in the conversation. i think it’ll help clear the air and calm things down a bit.
0. i was wrong about quest points
so, it’s every 5 quests. mostly. i ran a script on 5,000 quests, and while it’s supposed to be every 5 quests, there are some inconsistencies. the code is not exactly a joy to read without documentation. curse young keith for not writing any 💀.
this does mean it’s less rng than i thought, but my main point still stands: quest points are a currency you bank until we release something you really want.
with reputation, the idea is to make rewards more dynamic. not only will you unlock access to new items at higher tiers (e.g., we can add new tiers for npcs a few times a year), but you’ll also gain bonuses like increased prizes. i’ve loved the discussion in this thread about npcs reacting differently to your rank—imagine being addressed by your title or seeing unique dialogue as your reputation grows. it’s a cool way to make the site feel more alive and reactive.
this system also has potential beyond quests. for example, future events (no promises on a plot—resources are tight, i’m still the only programmer, etc., etc.) could take your npc reputation into account.
picture this: high reputation with blake steele could start you inside the krypts instead of at the entrance. or maybe an npc who knows you well gives you access to exclusive shortcuts or insights.
this is all brainstorming rn, but it shows why a reputation system feels more rewarding and versatile than just banking quest points. it opens the door to a richer, more immersive experience across the site.
1. this is a feedback thread for a testing feature
- the numbers are placeholders, purchasing items doesn’t work, and i’ve already outlined that there’s a lot left to do.
- this kind of testing is not about everything working perfectly yet—it’s about catching issues and gathering feedback. if change makes you anxious, i suggest reading the thread and waiting for the official release instead of jumping into testing.
- for example, nightly resets won’t happen during testing because the feature isn’t live yet. what will happen to the blue building? not decided yet.
2. more npcs = more quests
- i’m aiming to drastically increase the number of npcs offering quests. there are tens/hundreds of npcs on the site who could give these smaller quests for picking up items.
- the idea is that while you’ll do fewer quests per npc, you’ll have significantly more npcs to choose from.
- their shops will offer more prizes, giving us a great place to release new items while balancing rewards and availability.
- i'd be interested in how many wizard tokens those of you have banked who would be sad about the loss of additional tokens. are you actually excited to get those extra tokens daily? judging by the banked tokens in currency, i just can't imagine that is the case for most users.
3. manual options still exist
- you don’t have to use the new auto-options! if you prefer, you can grab the item from your inventory or manually navigate to shop search, buy it yourself, and come back to the quest page. i'll make this more clear 🔎
- the new options are there to make things easier, but they’re not mandatory.
4. most users aren’t doing all the quests
- it’s great to hear that some of you enjoy completing all the daily quests! however, that’s mostly gold account users—the site’s most active group.
- based on site data, the number of users who even do a single quest daily is low, and the number of users completing all quests is even lower.
- please keep in mind when you're talking about anecdotes like how you play the site that we have thousands of active users a day, and most spend less than 30 minutes on the site.
5. rethinking junk items & frag loops
- i hear the feedback about junk items, but let’s talk about why that’s even a thing. what purpose do junk items serve? none.
- tossing them into the fragmatizer to zap into currency isn’t engaging or fun. i’d rather have fewer items circulating, more ways to spend sP, and better rewards for actually doing things.
- the idea that there are even "junk items" that need to be collected to frag is a broken loop.
6. quests aren’t "fun," but they’re essential
- quests aren’t the most fun mechanic, but they keep the economy moving.
- that said, i’m actively working on rewriting games into kumos (tiles, anyone?) and trying to balance these system changes with creating actual fun.
a personal note
i’d really like to keep posting feedback threads like this—gathering input, making changes, and sharing things while they’re still in progress. i get it—change is hard. but it’s happening. i need to make changes to keep myself interested in the site, because how things are running now isn’t sustainable.
the question of "why fix something that isn’t broken" is frustrating because i can see how these things are broken. quests are something that less than 15% of active users even touch daily. less than 2.5% of active daily users complete all of their quests. that’s a broken system. these changes are aimed at fixing it by:
- balancing and increasing rewards,
- decreasing the total number of quests per giver but increasing variety, and
- giving you goals to work toward, like higher reputation and better rewards.
i want this process to feel collaborative, but that only works if we’re open to discussing changes instead of jumping to ultimatums.
thanks for reading, and for your feedback so far!
🧠 Idea Zone
there are some areas that I still haven't considered, and would love ideas on how to make them more fun. in particular, Shinwa. Right now she's a basic layer on top of our NPC quests, asking you to go back and forth to the other quests, and pick up the pieces of her bracelet. Why is it broken hundreds of times a day and scattered to her friends / allys? i'm not really sure.
so - this is a good opportunity to re-think how Shinwa works. Can you think of any fun or interesting mechanic that she could provide on top of quests (maybe doing away with her bracelet entierly, or re-using it for something else?). And how would you change her prize structure? I know that everyone wants particular prizes, but could we make it less frustrating when you don't get what you want?
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Thank you for the clarification, keith. Your explanation makes me feel much better and more excited about the changes!! Im one of those people that only do quests if I'm in the mood and I hardly ever am. For a while I was really into major drills because it makes you do stuff around the site (although I skip the ones I don't like haha) so maybe more quests like that? Or maybe shinwa could have quests that interact with maleria more since they're enemies? Or merana? Haha
I used the addresses from the OP, came to the wizard's page, looks the same as the others, has a HUGE black fields between Wizard&Luna pic and text about The old Wizard, the new shop, etc. I was able to go to the quest. I start the quest (let's leave the weird layout problem aside):
The items still don't have hovers other than their name, which luckily is written out underneath the items' pic. Yet there is no search shops function.
I need to copy the item name, paste it into shop search on legacy, do the whole quest in at least 3 times the time I would normally need on legacy and then finally turn in the items, after having refreshed the page, because I cannot select "use from inventory" otherwise.
How are we supposed to test, if the search shop isn't anywhere, let alone on the item hover together with account search? On legacy my quest window is on the right half of my monitor, I say for the left item "open in new window" (which it does on the left half of my monitor) and click on search on the right item, (esp. with Saggi I see at once, if it's worth completing the quest), and get both items into my invy fast (from whatever source). Then I backtab (my finger never leaves that key) and turn the items in. During purchase wait times in main shops, I close the open search windows.
Right now it's super fast, because he only asks for Spells Galore items, which usually are readily available there and cheaper than on shop search. And I have enough of each of those in my vault to use, if they should not be in the shop. But I cannot see, on Kumos, whether they are in the shop, how should I decide, which button to choose (vault or shop)?
The choice becomes more difficult, when other stuff is being asked for. I need to compare prices in user shops, whether they are probably cheaper than when buying from shop minus my card and bonus (that's how bad economy is right now!!!). In case they are more expensive, than I want to spend, which may also depend on rarity, which I can't see on Kumos, either, I need account search in order to find out, how many I own and weigh, if I'd rather use my stash or buy. I often account search during the quest, if I need to buy some for myself from the shop. I cannot do any of this on Kumos yet, I don't see, how a tortuous checking of unknown options should be helpful in this task?
Oh, yes, I don't know if it is better, when the site is back to normal, but now with all the added white and black fields there is a lot of scrolling to do :-(
Rewards: I'd rather not have another questgiver, that hands out (sorry) trash - I got a Moldy Bagel and a bookmark so far. The Wizard gives out Wizard Tokens and asks for underwear, please leave him that way :-)
I'm very happy about certain NPCs giving out special or no rewards outside of money.
Re changes; I've been working my butt off here for almost 18 years, trying to catch up with everything, earn sufficient of every currency, train my pets and grind to possibly finally one day get everything achieved in order to be able to lean back at last enjoying my achievements and start playing leisurely. I have spent wayyyy too much time of my life here, I would really hate for all of this to become worthless, make me having to strive for another mountain of other things and wake up on a completely different site on Kumos.
Shinwa could be a) like other quest givers because she can't leave her temple so she definitely needs somebody to fetch her things or b) she could be more like Major Drills where you help with tasks around the temple or something. Maybe if you have enough reputation with Maleria and Shinwa, Shinwa might have more tasks revolving around spying on Maleria.
Thank you for the clarifying post, Keith!
I didn't realize that that the plan is to expand the amount of NPCs that are quest-givers. That's cool! Would there be a core group of quest-givers that have quests available every day, then, with others rotating, hopefully by day of week since RNG can be so frustrating and often feels unfair in some way? I feel like some of the proposed change might be better-accepted if it didn't feel like everything was changing all at once, since it's so common for people to feel overwhelmed by change, so keeping some of the preferred current daily quest NCPs as 'core' quest givers might help the transition?
I seriously love the idea of reputation mattering outside of just these NPC shops/quests! That would give me so much more motivation to work on reputation points!
Also, on the topic of Wizard Tokens, I'm actually now wondering about the idea of his items being available for tokens as well as sP or something? I have something like 80k in my banked currencies which admittedly makes me want to aim to get up to 100k again and I very rarely get much lower since vending is too RNG-based for me to enjoy, I never have any luck with Blackheart Hollow and have basically given up on it, and Token Shop restocks are relatively infrequent and the items I want are generally not crazy-expensive. Whenever I decide to start doing his quests again, it's simple to re-earn whatever I've spent. I would imagine that's the case for a lot of others.
I understand the concerns people have about higher items at higher tiers but I'm warming up to the idea a lot. I feel like it will encourage me to start doing quests again in the same way that running out of Quest Points when there's seasonal stuff I want does. I think it would encourage me to do quests consistently (especially since they would be so much quicker!) and to me personally it doesn't sound like it would be that different from saving up QP. We'd just be starting from scratch and it would take some time... but the idea here is to encourage more questing since the majority of people on this site don't do much of it, so that fits.
I think I would just want to be sure it doesn't end up feeling like something where we have to do every quest every day to be able to get very many of the things we want. Obviously we can buy from other users and so on, but I personally really like trying to get things on my own when I can.
I wish I was creative enough to think of an idea for how to rework Shinwa, but honestly I just keep thinking it would make more sense for her to be a typical quest-giver than it does for half the quest NPCs lol. Looking at her Subetapedia article, she temporarily loses her powers if she leaves her temple, right? So of course she'd need other people to go pick things up for her. Her bracelet being broken every day is something I have never thought about but it's pretty funny - like, did Maleria put a curse on it and now the bracelet breaks and the pieces somehow scatter across the world at midnight every single day? That would be so annoying and it kinda sounds like one of those goofy magic curses you might see in things, like, I can see it through a lens of fairy tale logic. Man, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm stuck on how collecting scattered pieces of a goddess's bracelet while she's trapped in a temple feels like it could be the beginning of a questline in a video game, so now I'm like '... damn actually hold on, so, what's gonna be possible with reputation again?'
I don't know how feasible it is since it sounds like a lot of work but, like, the idea of there being kind of a progression with her quests is fun. I'm just picturing something where it goes from maybe the goofy bracelet thing we've always had (it'd be so cute to keep that as a starting point since it's been part of our dailies for so long), to us helping find a way to break this curse on that damn fragile bracelet (which could involve quests with the Wizard or some other magic-focused NPC?), to just casually running some quick errands for a goddess that is pretty friendly with us at that point and doesn't really leave her temple... that seems really fun to me! There could be something with her wanting us to do quests for Maleria to help keep an eye on her, too!
It's difficult to think of how to rework her prize structure because I feel like the natural inclination would be to have us receive more desirable items at higher reputation points, but then that would result in us reaching a certain point where we only get good items and that feels a bit excessive. And there isn't really a way to make getting a useless item instead of a stat booster less frustrating, I don't think, haha! The other thing that comes to mind is the rewards being more transactional but then that's basically just another currency and we don't need that. Hmm.
(Okay I had a LOT more to say about Shinwa than I thought, damn. Sorry for rambling I'm just really excited about Subeta lately!! I hope some part of it might be helpful in some way.)
If you click on the items, it brings you to the item page. They should have hovers, I'm not sure why they aren't working for you but I'll take a look and make sure they get back to working!
I completely agree on the prizes from quest givers. I want them to be unique, and make sense to the giver. That means creating more personalized lists of items they hand out (and maybe even removing those items from stock in other places). Another reason reducing quests to 3 per giver means that we can be more unique with the item prizes and not feel like they're going to devalue immediately. If we add 10 new items to the wizard prize items, we don't want those to feel sad and usless immediately!
i completely understand and respect the amount of time and effort you’ve put into the site over the past 18 years. that’s an incredible investment, and it’s not something i take lightly. i don’t want to devalue the hard work you’ve done—in fact, i want to celebrate it.
at the same time, i have to balance that with ensuring we’re not “pulling the ladder up behind us.” just because you’ve worked hard on something that might not be fun or useful anymore doesn’t mean new or returning players should have to climb the exact same hills.
technology has come a long way in 18 years, and so has what we can deliver. my goal is to say, “amazing job, here’s an achievement for what you’ve done,” and then make that feature more fun and accessible for everyone going forward.
acknowledging the grind is important, but sometimes i need to rework features so they’re less of a grind for others. that doesn’t erase the effort you’ve put in—it’s still an impressive accomplishment! it just means we’re evolving to meet the needs of the community as it grows and changes. i hope that makes sense, and i truly appreciate everything you’ve done here over the years. ❤️
Oooooo I love the idea of her using others reputation.
Maybe she has a list of 'ally' and 'enemy' NPCs, and asks you to do something different depending on who you're going to, and you're "empowering" that piece of the bracelet, vs just fetching it for her?
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oof, my bad—that was totally my fault. i quoted you, but the posts got all jumbled… honestly, i’m not even sure what i was planning to say 😰. i think i rolled it into my larger post.
thanks for brainstorming here, i really appreciate it! 💖
i’m not against the idea of a hard daily limit on quests (with extra for GAs) where you get to decide how to allocate them among the npcs. that said, i think having to skip some npcs might be tough for some users.
for a lot of folks, being told which quests they can do each day—and then just doing all of them—is simpler and more straightforward than picking from a larger list and filling up X quests.
these are different play styles, and i think there’s room to find a happy middle ground that works for everyone. 😊
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<p>Where as right now I could easily make 20 quest points in a single day and get that item.</p>
<p>Lol I just don&;t get how this is hard to grasp.
hey — i’m really trying here to have a productive back-and-forth. i’ve acknowledged that change is hard, that change is coming, and that i’m willing to meet in the middle on the things you’re talking about.
but comments like “lol i just don’t get how hard this is to grasp” aren’t engaging in the same way. if that’s the tone this conversation is taking, i’m just going to stop responding to your posts.
you have a real opportunity here to help shape the feature you’re discussing, and instead, it feels like you’re just trashing me. i don’t get it. if you want to contribute constructively, i’m here for that—but this approach isn’t it.
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additionally, as i’ve mentioned in the original post and replies, every single item currently in quest shops will be in tier 0. this means they’ll be immediately available for sP, and you can buy 3 per day. the changes only apply to new items added moving forward—and even then, you can always buy those from other users who reach the tiers before you.
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All I can add is all these drastic changes for things is making me anxious. It feels like nothing is going to be the same at all.
I understand if you are trying to delete items because that has got to be overwhelming but why not just delete them instead of taking things away from people?
Also, buy from people who get to tiers before you? Have you seen how much sp/csc people charge for those types of items? That really does come across like with the other changes that you want players to quit.
[img align=right]https://i.imgur.com/GKgUk3z.png[/img] by
[Center] If you are selling ANYTHING FROM HERE please pm me your prices/shop link! 🌻 [/center]
Thanks for answering. The hover only shows the item name - and it didn't occur to me having to click the item for shop search, sorry. I've done all the quests now, so can't try. The whole site seems broken - only for me? With all the white and black and weird huge side bar parts etc., it was working fully o.k. during composting and MM.
I'm open for new stuff, I just don't want to stand here with all my tokens, crystals, Blue Building points, money etc. unable to use it anymore but have to work for new currencies (or levels, or whatever), with only which I will be able to buy items, that I may also "need" to get, like a beginner for my next 18 years (which I most probably won't live to see, rofl). I don't want to start from scratch on a new site, and I guess, I'm not the only one... I did once join another pet site as it was starting from scratch. It was nice, but I decided to stick to Subeta only...
Will the quest giver achievements be taken into account for the reputation level?