Adding my voice to this. We already have a CW Releasers subforum. It's literally filled with ideas for improvements to the existing system that have been crowd-sourced. I really think that asking a select group of users privately what they think (and soliciting anyone who doesn't get asked to mail you with answers as to why they deserve to be part of the decision making group) is...not going to go over well. What are the criteria for deciding who gets a voice and who doesn't? Number of items drawn for the site? Number of items approved and on-site? Length of time in the community? I honestly feel like this is going to do more to drive wedges than to help anyone at all.

This thread alone has a ton of suggestions to improve the current system and isn't even locked to that CW Creator subforum. Not every suggestion has received widespread support, but it's an excellent jumping off point for behind the scenes staff discussion which can then be brought to the public at large for further inclusivity (as in, not just folks who've put at least one cw on site) so that we can hear from the people who don't participate in the market. We've gone through so many threads of ideas and some have been implemented but there's so much room to work.

Because I've read further responses from you on this (I still have the concerns above so I don't want to remove them) - I understand why you need a smaller focus group, I just am concerned with how the decisions on who that will be are being made. At the end of the day, it's not my business, so I'm going to trust that you have figured out a way to include people beyond the most popular artists/releasers who can bring alternate perspectives in. I would suggest including people who have spent their time on the discussion subforum for CWs making/maintaining guides and answering user questions and offering assistance consistently, especially for help with the guides and changes to the submission process.

I'm going to echo the artists too, it's going to be overall better for the market and site cash to stop requiring artists (across the board, not just here) to accept sP/CSC. There are already ways that this rule is skirted around (not blaming anyone, y'all cannot pay bills with site currency) and the rule seems extremely arbitrary. Just because the items produced are digital doesn't mean they don't require the same labor (often more) and skill as hand made goods. Not requiring that will allow more artists the freedom to take on commissions on here, which will lead to more users having items to submit, which will mean more money coming into the site. It will also incentivize artists to give back by subscribing/buying csc when they need it, rather than using the stockpiles they've had to amass because of the current rule.

I'm glad to have read further (I'm replying here, but I have read through the whole thread now) to see you're not planning to put the onus of wearables onto CW creators/releasers - as that was a concern I was going to bring up as well. While it would be nice to control the style/colors on basic wearables by putting them on site, it's also not really realistic to make boatloads of basic clothing items. Maybe if I was an artist myself and didn't have to bear the cost of doing so (and submission prices/plans were more reasonable than 2000 csc to get 1 color of 1 shirt on site) then it might be a more realistic approach to see some of that foist off to artists/releasers.

I too am concerned about profit margins as brought up by Starmates and Tart. I would be fine with the margin remaining the same if prices are lowered (100-200 csc/item depending on the overall cost of submission/base price in cw shops). I don't need/expect to see all of the profits coming to me - but it is going to be an issue if it costs me more to get an item made and on-site than I can even recoup half of (which is, like, the nicest hope I have right now - getting back out 50% of what I spent). I know this isn't a profitable system for a lot of us, especially with niche items, and I don't expect it to be. But this is definitely a factor to a point (I already "lose" money, I just don't want it to be a crazy dip).

I AM REALLY EXCITED FOR MORE PLOTS AND OTHER CONTENT FROM STAFF! Because I did see that and it's an exciting thing to think about going forward. I'm also excited to see there will be some movement on the unique names issue soon. I appreciate what you're doing here, even if I have concerns. I want this site to grow, I really do. I love it here, I have for years. I have made some really really good friends because of this place.

I also very much appreciate your timely replies to direct questions on this thread - I know there's a lot going on and some of us (me included) are sending walls of text, so it's really heartening to see you taking the time to read through them and address concerns and understand that we're all both hopeful and worried because we love the site and this aspect of it so very much.

Seeing a few posts about this so as a user who can only get commissions via CSC payment for a bundle of reasons and has done so for 5 years now, I want to share my POV. I know I'm not the only CW releaser that has paid for her comms with site currency. While it is very true that my commission itself was not funded by real money, the releases I have put out were slotted on by people who did purchase CSC from the site with real USD. So people like me have helped bring in income to the site indirectly. If all CSC/SP comms are totally banned, people like myself will no longer be able to release items and will be ostracized from a market we have been in for years now. Many of us would also not be able to afford CWs period as what we make from our own releases is what we often use to purchase items from other releasers. As much as we want to, not all of us can pay to play.

I'm not saying anyone should be forced to accept pay that they do not want to work for but when and if this change happens, I think some thought needs to be spared for people that up until now have been paying with what has been a valid payment option according to the site rules. I guess I just don't want to see Subeta turn into a place like many pet sites where some features are totally off limits to people that can't offer actual dollars.

My final thought is that I just hope whatever final decision is made is as fair to EVERYONE as it can be and doesn't cut anyone out entirely because that would suck. Just my two cents. I'm not trying to offend anyone, I'm just listing my fears. I'm excited for the future but as a longtime player who loves Subeta with all their heart, things like this really worry me.

@Cresenta No one is asking csc / sp commissions to be banned. We're asking for the right for artists to choose, and not be forced to work countless hours for basically no real payment. (On a busy month, I usually work 40+ HOURS for a currency I cannot use outside of the site. That is an INSANE amount of labor I'm not being paid for, by force and not choice. I have so much CSC right now I don't even know what to do with it?)

As it is currently, the artists who don't want to accept these payments find work a around ANYWAYS, and refuse to accept CSC / SP payments as it is or make it nearly impossible, and this sucks for them (because this is an extreme gray zone with the rules and a massive risk) AND commissioners. It gives commissioners false hope, or forces them to pay ridiculously through the nose with impossible to get items / etc.

People who want to accept site currency still will. For example, I still fully plan on accepting site currency. But I'd appreciate the option to choose, should something come up, and not be threatened with losing my account-- or be forced to take my entire business offsite. I should be able to stay in my community and be supported by my community.

If you want to talk more about this, please comment me as it's not 100% relevant to this thread and I don't want either of us to get in trouble.

@Cresenta I get the worry - but I'm not talking about banning use of site currency in my post, I'm merely stating that requiring it for labor is absolutely unfair. I'm not an artist, I have to buy comms with USD or CSC too. I know quite a few artists who will still offer site currency slots whenever they can, but it's really unfair to ask them to not be able to pay their bills for the sake of site currency commissions. What they do is skilled labor and it should be treated as such.

I apologize for going off topic, this will be my last post on this! I understand that; my only fear is that no one will want to offer site currency slots if they can make USD which is why I am afraid of myself and people like myself being blocked from the market.

@Cresenta I absolutely get the concern but I definitely know people still will. It might not be at the volume as before but I definitely don't see it completely going away.

My own hope is that DTS can be offered at base price--the price you'd pay for buying copies of your item from your own shop to gift or trade with others.

I don't think slotting will ever go away. Private items should probably be slotted. I would oppose the complete elimination of slotting, because a shop page full of items that only 20 people on the entire site are allowed to buy is depressing for the other 480-1480 people who happen to be on Subeta.

Private items shouldn't be abolished, because there are legitimate reasons for making an item private. If you're giving it to your friends for Lumi, if it celebrates a shared moment or an in-joke, if it's a specific item that belongs to your favourite OC, or a tribute to a beloved human or animal friend...you shouldn't be forced to sell it to all comers. But I also think it's best if private items can be distributed privately.

Keith says he wants to incentivize DTS pricing and unlimited releases, but you cannot simultaneously incentivize and penalize something.

At the highest tier, DTS is 1600, but buying a full batch is 2500. You then have to lay out 600-700 for an artist's copy if you commissioned your art, though you will get anything over 500 back. The total for DTS plus an artist's copy is 2100 CSC.

2500 for an entire batch gets you one copy for yourself, one copy for the artist, and 3 extra copies. Even if you can't get any slotters and you can't sell the extra copies quickly, you can pawn them for a total return of 750, making your cost for two copies 1750. If you drew your own art and you pawn four copies, your total cost for one copy is 1500.

This is why nobody submits DTS more than once or twice.

And if you do successfully get slotters or sell your batch extras for 600 each, though, your total price for two copies is 700, and your total cost for one copy is 100.

People who successfully slot a top tier item at 700 instead of 600 get 300 profit if they do their own art. If they need an artist's copy, they get both copies for a total of 400.

DTS is therefore 3x the price of slotting at 100 csc over base if you need an artist's copy and 16x the price of slotting if you only need a copy for yourself. If you slot at 200 over base and you drew your item yourself, you can make a profit and pay nothing.

If you automatically get 2 copies instead of one for DTS, DTS at the highest tier is 1600 for two copies. This is less onerous than 1750, which is the maximum total price for keeping 2 copies of a batch and pawning the rest, but not by much. If the releaser only needs one copy, the maximum total price (pawning rather than selling or slotting the extras) is 1250, and DTS is still more expensive.

Because it's possible to slot items and get your own copy for free or for under base price, DTS will never be absolutely cheaper than slotting.

However, if DTS price is the base price for the item, you'd get one copy or two copies of a top tier item for 500. Even if you only get one copy and you have to pay an additional 500 for an artist's copy, this is significantly cheaper than buying a batch all by yourself.

Slotting will still be cheaper, but slotting is a lot of work.

DTS at base price would be a really good deal, especially for people with heavy responsibilities and people with social anxiety, because slotting and selling batch extras is work and requires social spoons, and pawning your own items is really depressing if you're doing it to recover your lost submission price rather than because the pawn shop is opening at the end of the week and you want to give someone a nice surprise.

I understand your frustration at having paid so much to get started, but that's the nature of markets. People probably won't be willing to pay 700 for a wig so you can have 500 csc profit to offset your sunk costs, but if you price your wigs at 400, more people will buy them. Three 200 csc purchases will do you more good than one 500 csc purchase.

Add animal companions and base mods to the list of things where one price fits all isn't working. The price of a shoulder rat or a pair of horns or bunny ears is the same as the price of a warhorse or an entire lower body replacement that's dancing or skating.

100% agreement that the site shouldn't charge releasers more to be inclusive. I'm going to be working on an item with Emyon this week that I intend to release in all 10 of the basic human skin tones, plus the fantasy bases I use (grey, white, and blue) and any other fantasy bases people will promise to buy.

If I could DTS at base price and get an artist's copy at base price I'd do every single one of them, but currently, DTS is more expensive than paying for a whole batch and pawning the extras.

@Cresenta / / You're all valid. If artists are forced to accept site currency, at the very least, some of them may also be forced to vastly limit the time they spend on CWs in favour of spending their time on things they can earn real money from.

But it's also true that while Cressie will probably always be able to commission things, because her releases are amazing, I think it will be a lot harder for new releasers to get CSC slots if nobody's actually required to offer them.

After thinking about it for a long while, though, I have come down on the side of not requiring artists to accept site currency for two reasons.

Reason 1 is that artists have to eat and pay rent and in times like these, competition for paying jobs is really stiff. If the only work someone's getting is here, they should still be able to eat and pay rent.

Reason 2 is that some artists discourage CSC payments by not only requiring more CSC than the amount their USD prices could purchase but also requiring that the releaser gift them with hard-to-find wishlist items. Everyone has the right to ask the prices they want to get, and people who are willing to pay those prices know what they're doing. But I would hope that if only artists who were really OK with offering CSC slots offered them, the conversion rate would be less skewed.

As for incentivising unlimited releases, step one should be making sure they show up in the CW feed. I've heard over and over that people delay purchasing unlimited releases because they can always get it later, and I'm sure that some people do.

But ever since I found out that unlimited releases don't show up in the CW feed, I've been stocking a specific number in my shop. My shop front page clearly states that items are unlimited and I reserve the right to restock, so that nobody can say I'm 'scamming'.

I don't do this because I want people to think they might miss out.

I do this because I have seen an item I had previously set at unlimited suddenly appear in the CW feed after I changed the number in stock, even though I had released it weeks ago, and it's funny how you sell a lot more items when people actually see your items.

In order to promote DTS and unlimited releases, the first step is to stop making it harder to do than slotting.

The artists who don't accept site currency already steer clear of taking commissions through subeta. So I highly doubt anyone will be blocked from the market more than people in general are already blocked due to missing out on art from talented artists because of this rule.

In fact I can see more artists choosing to use the forums( which is a more public and easily accessed platform than say, a private discord server with a select few members. )to promote art sales if we have more freedom to choose how we get paid. More artists>more art for more people>more cws>more CSC is bought>happier subeta.

I wasn't implying I wanted 500 csc profit from past items...but if wigs are now say 250 csc to buy and subeta takes half the profit...then I'm getting screwed over for my past releases and that's not really fair to me and other releasers....if I still get the SAME profit from a wig selling no matter what I don't really care about the pricing....my concern is obviously on the getting like 50 or 100 profit for something that was already on site that I paid 2.5k or 1.6k to get there and still had to buy my artist copy if that makes sense :)

I didn't think you were, but I wasn't sure whether you were wanting a consistent 200 CSC profit, which I think you will get, or to be able to continue selling wigs at 700 CSC.

I'll admit I'm kind of blase about submission costs and prices here on Subeta. This is because submitting Tessa the Thylacine on Gaia cost me $350. But we don't want Subeta to end up like Gaia, either, LOL.

so I have to believe what my translator tells me; but does anyone really believe that users are going down with prices? in some shops prices are 10 k and higher and I was blocked because I asked a user if she would sell me hair for 600 instead of 700, it was expensive for them to sell things here and they had to pay their costs again Get in, I should please save until I can afford the things. kind. but well, let's wait, subeta is always good for a surprise and the will counts.

Excited to see what comes of the freed time for working on other parts of the site. It's always been something I've wanted to see.

I'm super happy that theres talks of the cost of CWs going down, I was worried it would be a hard no as its been discussed many times over the last few years but yayy.

I dont think it will hurt artists whatsoever (depending on how its handled it might tickle releasers intially though). I just think it will invite new releasers (and artists alike!) who were scared off by the inital pricing. Releasers who were never going to buy into CWs at its current state. Or ones that tried that will be incentivised to try again, I've heard a few people talk about wanting to create an item for a TC for example but the cost is so high compared to everything else on site.... is it even worth it?

I see the arguement on both sides regarding selling CW commissions for csc vs irl currency. I'm not really gonna go into it cause I already see pitchforks (and is that a torch? o___o) but I think that discussion needs to be had on site involving the main artists/ releasers involved because just because the currency requirement is lifted, doesnt necessarily equate to business coming back for some. There are several reasons why forums are being deserted.

Question though, if you want to remove slotting and have everything centred around the shop, how will password invites work? Or will that be taken down too? As those are usually forum invite based. Will the conversations be moved to your shop or something?

On a side note, semi cw related, but a way to condense event notices would be great ;u;, and will have to be looked into especially if things were to move more to shops, those notifs can be hella bulky XD And my poor lil brain just crosses them off half the time. Especially when I've had a week or so off.

(I have read this like ten times sorry if something doesnt make sense I tried I truly did ;A; )

CWs priced that high (at 10k csc and up) are more often than not items that are up for trades rather than straight sales. And, if the submission prices are lowered then releasers won't need to charge the prices that they are now. Right now it costs 2500 csc to submit a wig, so releasers usually charge 600-700 csc per item so that they don't lose a lot of csc when submitting the item for approval. I hope this helped in some way :)

I know that in all games special items are traded expensive, no one gives anything for free, but I think, and I know that users are getting upset again, currently such items should be adapted to the current Rl situation. So not only the users should make the cw cheaper, also subeta should reduce the purchase of cash in the cs. Many have lost their jobs or are short-term and many come to switch off and get away from all the trouble and worries. I believe that a lot of the people here cannot afford a few of the beautiful parts and shouldn't subeta prove a little bit of "humanity"? I know that everything here is also geared towards profit, that's how games are, but we're talking about pixels that we can move from right to left, nothing more and not a kidney donation. i think now is the time to show how far this side can wave the flag of each other. the times are getting better again and then you could go back to the old profit, but I think it would be nice to accommodate all of us a little now. well let's see what is more important to the game makers

yes the users always say the things would be overpriced and you should write to them, that's annoying, if you have money you want to spend it and not write back and forth for a long time and if you come to some cw shops the things are locked. you feel like a leper, you only get things if you come to my forum? (don't know if I understood that correctly)

(I hope the translator says what I mean, I don't want to attack, annoy or insult anyone)

Well, there are set costs for what different types of items cost to submit (2500 being the highest) and releasers (me included) want to be able to make some kind of profit so that we can get more items onsite. I understand that things are difficult all around the world right now but the cost of csc is still the same if you buy it for USD (which I do). I, personally, buy a set amount of csc every month. That amount and any sales I get of the CWs that I've got in my shop is what I use to submit new CWs as well as pay for CWs that I've slotted on from other users. But one of the things that is bringing up in this thread is the fact that they want to lower the price of submitting CWs, and that will lead to releasers being able to bring their prices down since it won't cost them as much to submit new items (or recolors). If the majority of releasers lower the prices of the items they release then it'll be nigh on impossible for anyone to try and stay at the old level of prices ;)

Items being locked can be that for several reasons, most commonly it's because the releaser is waiting for people that have claimed slots (prior to the CW being approved) to pick up their copies before the item is unlocked. It can also be locked because it's a private release, or because it's a release that is related to a site event (such as Vesnali or Masq). The latter usually means that the releaser has a forum thread in the event specific sub-forum where they are taking slots for items for the duration of the event.

I understand you, honestly, but right now you (I) have to consider what is important for us (me), I also play on fb u. there were / are discounts that can be earned, of course you can d. buy things normally. I would like to be one of those who shop to their hearts' content with a credit card, I see that in many games, but I save the comment on it, there is only controversy. I do not have to tell you what you can do with your cash in the Rl, that would be nonsensical, everyone has to know how he wastes his money. I would find it nice if you play on a page that not only talks about the fact that the users are important, but also shows it. That doesn't have to be a price reduction, but sometimes events where you can e.g. can get things from the cw pawn shop, pet slots or the like. Asking a game site to cut prices is like asking your landlord if you can live for free. so anyway, it was just an idea. Thank you for your kind answers and patience.

That's fair. I hope this means more wearables are being revamped as well. There's already a lot (which is great!), and to see refreshes happen over new items would be wonderful.

(that's not really here nor there, but I wanted to mention them. I'll go back to lurking)

Honestly, I kinda think the opposite on there being less opportunity for people who can only offer site currency. I think that by not forcing artists to have to offer it on-site, then there will be more encouragement from them to occasionally offer csc/sP spots at comparable rates or to offer csc only design sales here and there.

At the end of the day, custom wearable designs - just like all commissioned art - are a luxury item. I cannot afford to commission everything I want, most people can't. But my inability to afford something doesn't negate that the thing has value that should be properly compensated. I don't want to derail this thread into this discussion any further, I mostly brought up the point because artists across the site in all the areas (including writers, coders, and not just digital/cw artists) have brought up this issue numerous times, and since the CW falls under art market rules, if we're gonna have a council helping to rewrite rules it seemed like a good spot to put that thought into their heads again for discussion as it's pertinent to that aspect. I'm hoping to have the time and drive to make a suggestions board about this at some point.

I think any changes that come to pricing etc will be a going forward thing, just like last time. They didn't remove the pricing minimums on items when they made the switch from a flat 5k for 10 copies to having assorted pricing tiers and offering smaller batches so I don't think they'll retroactively go back and drop the prices on things already approved and on-site (though future recolors would be open for lower prices). Hopefully how I explained makes sense - it's been a long workday haha.

I'm gonna echo too on the shop notices - I don't have a problem with the shop owner announcements beyond wishing they didn't stretch so much (not anyone's fault really, that sidedash is the size it should be) but if you're "subscribed" to a shop and someone adds several items at once/prices unpriced things...you get a notice for each and every one. I really wish it would just be like "User added items to their shop!" with a link or something and didn't send an event for every single individual item.

@ Reaper Yeah I figured I'll be able to price at what I "want" I'm just concerned on the profit margins...like if say a wig gets dropped from 700 to 250 and that's the new "normal" folks aren't going to want to spend 700 on something that USED to be that price lol XD they'll expect "new" pricing and that's what I'm concerned with :o If I still get the same profit on my items as the old pricing system I'd be okay with that :D I'm hoping it will fall into the hey ya'll keep your profit and we don't take any so we can afford to drop our prices/give a good deal but still get the same profit for "older" items XD and no worries you totally made sense lol :D

yeah I'm just making sure whatever the new costs are (which I'm excited about lower submission/multiple copies) but I do want to make sure I can still make profit on those items vs oopsie sorry you get 50 csc now lol ;) And I can't even imagine paying $350 for anything online :P granted I do buy designs/get designs/recolors but I just wanted to make sure ya know we aren't getting screwed in the process for the new system (which super does sound appealing) XD so yeah I'm just looking for the 200 csc profit (not 700 csc lol) XD

This has probably been said. But I hope you guys will continue to release a few wearables on the site. Some of us would LOVE to subscribe, but financially that's impossible. So I primarily use sP items for that reason. I do love CW and am curious how these changes will affect the ability for us to afford CWs more.