@ feral I apologise--I must have either misread you or mistaken you for someone else! I'm so sorry and I'll edit my post.

@ Varsna Thank you for the clarification. I don't put anything on Discord only. I just can't get slotters with the site so broken.

I would also volunteer to help out with CW guideline/rule/categorisation/whatever.

@ myshytta well, if you WANT friends, you sound like someone who's on the same page as kylonaberrie and me. Feel free to friend me! I have actually made a lot of friends in this community, most people are nice when you get to know them. And I suspect that you can and will make friends, too. I'm also on some block lists, LOL, because I have Opinions--but I'm not in the least bit opposed to being friends with people or socialising with them, I just don't think it should be a requirement for purchasing pixel clothes.

I'm not 100% opposed to private items, because I feel that sometimes people make things that are very personal, or that they want to give as gifts. But I don't think items that are going to be truly private should ever be sold. I keep the agreements that I make when I buy other people's private items because I'm not a dick. But I've always held myself to the principle that if I sell something to someone, it's now theirs to do what they want with.

And you don't actually have to cap your batches. I feel like a lot of people don't really know that. It isn't something you are required to do. You can submit something as unlimited and limit the number of slots you are selling right now, but reserve the right to give away more copies, sell more copies later, et cetera.

Thank you!! Youre right, i shouldnt have to have friends if i pay the same money as everyone else to this site. I am VERY opinionated, & i dont think i can change that. I am very careful of hurting peoples feelings tho, because im sensitive myself i know how that feels. I added you ! I have tons of friends now actually, its just in the beginning of CWs i had no friends at all , atleast any that i could talk to everyday.

I think you mixed Feral and I up.

My big issue with Discord is that it lends into the idea that CWs are cliquey. And moves discussion and engagement off of the site, which lowers overall site traffic. Also, discord only slotting - which is not a a thing everyone does, but there are instances where it does/has happened, and that creates more issues.

I think, used in conjunction with the site, it could be a useful tool. But I (and others) can't always sign into that while we're out whereas I can usually check my pings off and on and see what's being slotted/claim slots (or at least save the pings so I don't forget). The site has already gotten a lot more stable than it was after the initial move. It's not perfect, but it never was, and it's functioning fairly well IMO.

As for the slotting issue where you say you've never had an issue filling batches until after the server move - that's lucky. You've had items that were well received. That isn't the case for a lot of folks. I had issues slotting first batches even before the site issues after the server move. Sometimes I have no trouble, sometimes I have items sit in both of my groups since August of last year with unfilled first batches. I can't really balance not trying to overwhelm the market with getting my items on site if I can't fill a single batch (4 slots honestly, because I usually put myself in b2 for funds reasons but do need to cover artist slots).

Between my two groups, I have 412 group members. Even adjusting for duplicates and for inactive/frozen users...if I can't fill 4 slots out of 200+ people....that's an issue. I'm not going to make my items 20, 30, 80 copies or unlimited when I can't even fill 4 slots. In my experience, if I try to make an item unlimited...99% of the time I have to cover the entire first batch myself.

The amount of times I've ended up pawning my own first batch spares to try and recoup some of my cost (which is often already high because I cannot art) is...a lot. And I think anything that takes people away from the site or makes the market seem even more unfriendly (IE - having to join discords to hear about releases, only engaging in the chat channels of the discord groups rather than utilizing the forums) makes it even more likely that more people are going to turn away.

My life improved immeasurably when I stopped caring about not being considered close enough of a friend to my 'friends' to be invited to their super ultra special privates honestly lol. I feel you on the positive way the market has shifted away from that mostly. I also feel a lot better since I accepted that some items are probably permanently out of reach and being upset about it was only hurting me. It's wild how different (mostly) it is now from back in the day and I honestly feel a lot better about it as a whole - even with the way it's slowed as of late.

As far as the site is concerned, none of any of it has rarity or value. It's honestly hit and miss on pretty much everything and a lot of the value is subjective to folks based on what they paid or how hard it was to get or if it's one of their favorites but they never wear it or a million other silly things. But reselling something that doesn't work is definitely a pain sometimes. My advice on that bit is to play with items in the wardrobe first - make sure you really think you'll use it a lot.

The whole just for friends thing was initially how Subeta marketed the idea/implementation of CWs. I don't think anyone really thought through to how huge they'd become. It was 5000 csc to submit any cw back in the day and you were given 10 copies. It didn't matter how big or small and their idea was that we'd create items for ourselves and to share with our closest friends (or keep all for ourselves). There was...so much more clique issues and drama back when it all started. So much more haha. The number of privates being released now has dwindled quite a lot and is mostly folks making things that they want for their own OCs and don't want to see tons of copies floating around on. A lot of them never get sold at all. It's not really about being snobby or exclusionary now so much as it's just about keeping something special for people who may understand why it's special.

Other folks have brought up your idea of all cws being forced into public and unlimited settings and I can tell you now - we'll lose artists and releasers even faster than we are at the moment if that happens. Quite a lot of folks already said when this was proposed before that they'll walk away and stop supporting the site. There are a number of CWs submitted by folks that are entirely private and made based on their own characters. There's tributes made to friends and pets who've passed that are private. There's any number of reasons not to sell copies widely that isn't about being a clique. Also - people are usually paying real money to have the items made and to get them put on site. Dictating that they now have no control over release wouldn't work.

If there's a private you love though - chances are someone has made a similar item that's not private. There are very few things I have seen that are entirely unique and private (that's not to say there aren't some that don't have similar piece - I have a few on my WL that I've never seen anything similar to as a single piece that I'd love to own but can't haha).

A lot of the frustrations I used to have with the CW market and things has gone away over the years as I realized that...none of this really matters. I'm not losing anything by not being able to acquire X or Y item. I've changed the way I think about it and it's made me a lot less upset overall.

Thank you, as always, for your very calm and reasonable discussion/explanation of things. You da mvp.

So basically, what I'm reading from this thread is that the best we can do as CW releasers is try to increase engagement through personal means, like events and utilizing CW cash shops more, perhaps increasing batch sizes.

The rest of the improvement seems to land squarely on staff's shoulders, so all we can do is keep giving constructive feedback and hope that some of it is considered and implemented over time.

If anyone has any suggestions on how to engage users who are NOT currently interested in the CW market, I'm all ears! I think people like who become independently driven to join the CW community will find a way to learn what they need to learn to join in, but I have to assume that there are less motivated users that get turned away by the quagmire.

[box=#ccccff]My current plan:[/box]

I have an idea or two for new ping groups to help increase engagement, but since I can no longer create any new useful ping groups (for now, though I'm hoping staff will reconsider), here are my current personal goals.

• I'm going to create a section on my user profile with a list of links to helpful CW posts, and possibly add a message in my forum signature about being available to help CW noobs if I can fit it into my code.

• I'm going to host more events, both within my CW ping group and more publicly on the Giveaways forums, even during non-holiday months. I'd love to collaborate occasionally with other artists/releasers on these!

• I'm going to increase my batch sizes where it seems feasible, and make sure to ping my cash shop followers when I add new unlocked items to my shop.

• I'm going to create a release schedule and release new items and recolors more reliably.

• I'm going to carve out more time for commissions and try to be more present/available on the CW commissions forums. I will continue to offer both USD and CSC commissions.

• I'm going to create a table of contents for the CW Meet n' Greet thread on the discussion forum. - DONE

• I'm willing to help maintain and contribute to thread with cw art tutorials if anyone is interested in sharing that duty with me.

It's entirely possible that I mixed up you and . Lord knows I've done it before, though it's easier not to now that you don't both have 6 letter names that end in -er.

I may also have misunderstood what feral meant when she said that Varsna hit the nail on the head, but both are likely, frankly.

As for first batch slotting--look, I'm not trying to brag or sound bitchy, because I have had items that have been well received, and I'm lucky to be working with popular artists as well.

I also do items that not a lot of other people are doing. It's probably harder to compete with other releasers for CSC if you are doing a lot of oversized sweaters, shorts, and punk stuff. (You don't tend to do those either though, so idk.)

But my point wasn't that first batch slotting was always easy for everyone all the time before maintenance. That would be a very bitchy thing to say. I apologise for sounding like a bitch, and for hurting your feelings, because I think I did, even if you didn't say so, and that was not my intent.

My point was that I really don't believe that it is necessary to cap your releases at 10-20 copies to get first batch slotters.

If it were, I don't think I would have been so lucky. I'm certainly not the most popular person in this community or on this site, because I'm a loudmouth with lots of ideas that a lot of people don't care for much.

I don't know why you are having trouble filling first batches, because I love a lot of the stuff you release and have some of your stuff in every colour you made.

But I would really like to see hard figures from multiple releasers that back this idea up before I accept this, because if it is a myth like I think it is, it really needs to be busted, because it is hurting the people who are not friends with everyone, not on discord, and not following everyone all the time, and it is definitely hurting everyone who joins Subeta in 2022, which I think we all hope will still be happening.

There are some people who pass up unlimited releases, for sure. But I think they get too much credit for unfilled batches and should definitely not be catered to, because the attitude that a release isn't worth anything if anyone can have it for the price of a Big Mac is, frankly, mean.

I certainly understand how the use of Discord can add to the perception that we're all a big clique who just throw money at each other all the time and want to leave everyone else out.

But I honestly think the tiny batches do more to uphold that idea than Discord does, and I don't think Discord will go away unless they fix the damn site. Because, while my theory that it is harder to get slotters since maintenance is also not backed up by statistics, all the releasers on the discords I frequent are reporting similar problems.

Cherrypick was greaat! And idk, it'd take a massive revival of the forums and such I think.. but.. there is some activity about still so who knows :o.

I would love to see both a revival of threads like Cherrypick (so many good ideas!), as well as see something like this integrated for site-wide CW contests/events. I think the general userbase would feel so much more included in the process if non-artists/non-cw artists were able to submit references or sketches of ideas they have. CW artists could "claim" a design idea before drawing and submitting it for the contest to prevent multiple artists from drawing the same design.

Even if this wasn't done for specific CONTESTS, it could be really cool for the proposed idea of a Community CW Shop. Each item could be credited with Concept by: User1, and Art by: User2. :O

Oh I do totally agree with but as you saw from their clarification, and as I understood their post, they don't think that either.

Discord is good for supplementing the existing site community. But it being the only way to participate in CWs for some people is personally just not for me and I think it does more damage than good for the onsite community.

I do not use my Discord for off-site CW things. In fact, when I give people my discord and all they want to talk about is CWs, I tell them to message me on Subeta instead. Discord for me is a place to relax and be offsite. I strongly believe that if I'm required to do off-site things for on-site results, it's not worth my time. shrug Absolutely no one is required to feel the same way, that's just my personal opinion.

That is a totally valid boundary. I know other people, like Bug, feel the same way. And I absolutely don't think it shouldn't be the only way to participate in CWs.

I enjoy the CW discords because I've gotten to know a lot of people I really like there--especially , who does my thylacine babbies. I would probably not have worked up the courage to ask for a commission from Akita without getting to know her on discord, because I fangirled her animals so hard (well, I still do, but without the sense of Great Silencing Awe that I used to feel).

I have social anxiety and it's difficult for me to ask people for things out of the blue, which is one of the reasons I finally jumped into releasing by purchasing designs open for sale to the public. This is also why I don't like to lock items (I used to find it very difficult to ask for invites, especially since the first few times I got shot down) and why you will never see me on "check out my owned lists" posts unless someone like Cressie who I know and feel comfty with makes them, because getting shot down, even for totally legitimate reasons, just makes it harder for me to ask relative strangers again.

So, discord makes it easier for me to ask for things because it's easier to just to get to know people there by chatting about CW stuff etc. But I probably would not ever do discord-only sales because I am so about making it easy for people to get what they want.

I am just so frustrated that the features that make it easier to get slotters on site seem to be permanently broken these days.

& I want to clarify that I'm not anti-anything being private ever, but if items are going to be private, I don't think people should be permitted to sell them in shops.

Obviously trading can't be controlled, but while I do keep all agreements I make because I did make and consent to them, in my heart of hearts, I don't think you should try to control what people do with something they paid for, and I also feel that people who do this set themselves up for pain and suffering, because humans are weak-willed, forgetful, and impossible to control.

One thing that I will add to the discussion about rules:

Unwritten rules suck.

Nobody should ever get a denial because of a rule that is either not written down anywhere at all or buried deep in a forum thread conversation.

I submitted orange horns after paying $35 for the art because I have an OC, Moraga Ksenet, who has orange horns.

Obviously, with orange horns, the question of Homestuck tributes comes up, so I submitted with all these links to Homestuck sites in order to prove that my item was not a tribute to any of the specific Homestuck characters. There were at least 2 differences between the drawing style of my artist and Hussie and more than 2 differences between any of the character-specific horn designs and my item.

I got denied (after weeks of waiting--if this is a rule, why did it take so long?) because Andrew Hussie once said that he doesn't want fans to profit from derivative works, so "we historically haven't allowed Homestuck tributes."

1. this should have been written down somewhere easy to find so I didn't spend $35 and waste my money and hell's time and claim a design that I'm not sure I can even use with different colours now;

2. the site profits from csc sales, what people use csc on is their business;

3. I've never profited from any CW release and even if I did, I can't pay my rent or my dinner bill with csc;

4. Hussie was specifically talking about people selling art and comics they made of his characters, he does not own a copyright on the idea of orange horns, and Moraga's my character that I play in my RP that I personally run;

5. If I hadn't followed the rules and been 100% honest, I would probably have been approved but since I admitted my OC is a fantroll I'm screwed;

6. , ,

Seriously?

Anything that is an actual rule should be written down where people can easily find it.

I get that some things like art quality have a subjective aspect. But "we don't allow any kind of Homestuck tribute" is a thing that is not hard to quantify, and since the site does allow tribute items to most fandoms, there should be a list of the ones that they don't.

I still am cheesed off about this and I will always be, because I sincerely think if I'd said nothing about Homestuck or trolls in my submission they would have passed it, and I only did that because I thought it was an obvious thing that I would be an idiot to not address. I am still considering writing to the people who handle Hussie's copyright online and asking them if this rule isn't taking things a bit far given the "4 differences" site rule and the fact that they haven't sued Redbubble into submission yet.

This is going to be some awkward typing bc mobile, rip

Re: having troubles with batches

Honestly, this. I’ve been having immense trouble filling even one batch of things, and even my most popular items like the smokes haven’t been filling up like they used to. I’m well aware that some of my items aren’t everyone’s cup of tea and that’s ok! I just find it ridiculous that with literally all the people onsite and participating with cws, I can’t find four people with the same taste? I’m a little salty, sure, but while it’s a pain to submit a batch basically by myself and at a loss, it’s ultimately me who wants this item onsite. However, this is also ultimately the reason why I limit those items to 10 slots - and I usually say that slots will be capped according to interest, so I don’t know if that’s a reason why people don’t slot? (Confusion intensifies)

Re: discord and community

As one of the admin of a pretty big server with like, what, 12 releasers now, I absolutely agree that discord should not replace slotting onsite!! I know from my experience that it’s mostly used to slot first batches, and then it goes to site (which is what I do!). I’d also like to mention that we, as a group, have been brainstorming things that we can do, since we’ve already banded together as a small community - we’d love to work together with people to help open CWs up to the user base, and help foster more community feeling. We’re ofc still brainstorming, but we’ll definitely be bringing most of this “outreach” to the forums ( ´ ▽ ` )

Thanks to for making me aware of this thread! (At least I think it was you lmao)

And thanks for the topic! It’s really interesting to read, especially from people who’ve been involved with CWs for so much longer than myself!

I am a little confused at the recent downturn of slots - maybe everyone is just Mega Broke™ after the holidays and then the Pawn Shop straight after? The few slots I've taken since December have done pretty well, but I generally do very basic items vs. a specific aesthetic. IDK but you're not the only one on this thread hurting for takers lately. :(

Also, thank you for the work you and your Discord buds are doing, brainstorming and making plans to help foster the community!

I’m very much guilty of being That Aesthetic™️ Kind of person, like is probably one of my fav releases but I’m well aware that it’s super niche lmao

I do hope that it has to do with that tbh! That would mean that it’s something that can be fixed with time, and not something intrinsically wrong with the site.

And no need to thank me/us! We all love CWs, the community and the friends we’ve made through it ( ´ ▽ ` ) it’d be great if we can even just a field guide to cws done, so that those new to cws aren’t left floundering! I’ll be lurking around here for ideas too ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶

Haha that's totally okay! You and some of the other releasers lately are starting to revive the feeling of how CWs used to be - a lot of unique, niche items that got made because they were special to the person releasing them. When the CW market first started to slump 3 years ago or so, a lot of niche items got edged out of the market because it was hard to find buyers, and releasers that stuck around began relying on items that would have a wider appeal. But if you'll notice, A LOT of the rare, super sought-after items from way back when are very unique, aesthetic kinds of items, not the basics!

Speaking of a field guide, have you seen these two posts by Cathii and Reaper? Reaper updated hers last year, and Cathii let me know that she is reworking hers a bit too. They might be interested in fresh eyes for additions!

Buyer's Guide to CWs

CW Introduction and where to start

I love that tbh!! It’s so interesting to see where the market goes, trend wise - I will DIE before I let wings go lmao Speaking of older items, I think mentioned something trying to get a directory together, but I’d have to ask again, in case I misunderstood

Also! I knew about cathii’s thread, but reaper’s was unknown to me!! :000 thank you, it’s so useful! That’s def a link I’m going to save

Yeah! I'm so glad that some users like are you just going for the gold and doing what you love, and that the market is able to support it somewhat. It's always a risk putting your time and money into CWs, and while I enjoy what I personally release, I'd hate to think of anyone feeling stifled because they felt like they'd never fill slots for what they truly want to sell.

[edit] This is one reason why I really hope staff seriously considers reducing the DTS price! We'd get a lot more variety of items if submitters didn't have to gamble on raising enough money for unusual items!

I'm not sure about the directory mentioned, but I recently saw this ping group that looks promising: CW Library, and I know that once upon a time was working on an official CW database, but I have no eta on that.

You're welcome! I've been linking those things all over the place, they're really a good place to start for info! (and way more up-to-date than the official threads.)

I might see if I can start up a monthly sketcha thon type thing for lil prizes, and been as it would been around different ideas and themes it could easily wink to cw/ ha themes some of the months as well as other parts of the site!

The prizes would only be small (could maybe have larger contests 3 times a year or something?)as well so as to encourage people less confident (or hoping too).

That sounds like a great idea for an event!

well I'll see what I can do for next month ^^. If nothin else it'll be a bit of fun

Just a head's up for anyone subscribed to this post:

I created a stupidly massive list of suggested improvements to the CW system here, using a lot of different posts from over the years. I didn't put anything specific from THIS thread, since I couldn't directly link posts because this subforum is hidden for anyone that hasn't submitted a CW.

You can check out the post here and please feel free to add suggestions, your support/disapproval, or whatever! <3

This has probably been said already but if the site were to advertise for new users then we'd have increased traffic and economic base; thereby more people participating in CW's. The problem is people like to join sites that have new things or objectives to complete on a very regular (active) basis. Things like daily quests are not enough of a draw for most new users.

Think about what it is that draws you to your favorite platforms (video games, or other types of game-like entertainment). When you pull out all the similarities, it is usually something dynamic that requires active play, not static play.

In my opinion, the biggest reason CW's are declining is not because of CW's or the market itself; it is due to declining user-base. It is also suffering from a decline of users who wish to put money into the system (also for a variety of reasons). Although there are other reasons that a site could perform poorly. I have seen a multiplicity of successful sites go under for various reasons, even some more popular ones. The biggest set back is revenue, a lot of online sites don't earn enough money to keep things alive and dynamic indefinitely. Unless they find ways to keep things interesting and draw in fresh players.