@Cresenta I think the same folks who offer them now would probably continue to do so when they can. I don't think that'll change much to be honest. It might draw more people in to the market though, as I know of several who won't bother because to them, it's not worth it because they can't use CSC for real life needs.

I had a friend sign up because she was interested in getting into the CW and art market when she saw me playing one day, and then immediately quit when she realized she'd have to accept site currency as well, because it wasn't worth it to her at all. She'd rather take that time to work on art she can sell elsewhere for USD.

@Cresenta If you're in a position where you NEED the money, and you're being paid in csc you are effectively being paid nothing, because you're not getting what you need to survive.

I shouldn't owe Subeta a % of my funds on TOP of me making them additional money with all the cws I submit or sell so others can submit. I think by now, after this many years, I've paid my dues. People who aren't artists aren't being asked to pay for forum use / shop use / etc in real money, so why are artists?

I am aware that it sucks if you can't afford to pay in USD but no one else but artists (and all types; writing, coding, etc) is asked to work for a fake currency.

I am privileged to be able to offer CSC slots right now, like I said, but if that changes, I shouldn't be forced to work for nothing just to give Subeta a % of my time when they're already getting a fair amount of it anyways.

Ah that's true. Being forced to accept something as payment that's contrary to what you'd rather be paid with isn't really fair. It's like someone telling you how much/what you should charge for your talent/time. I guess if someone wants CSC then they will continue to offer their art for it regardless of if they don't have to. If they need/want USD they will go for that. Thanks for offering me some perspective on this friend, I feel a little bit better about this now and it gives me hope it'll be okay. I really appreciate it! <3

I understand. I never said that it was FAIR to force anyone to take CSC if they NEED money. My orig post was hoping that even with the change some artists would make their art available to people like me when they can. It wasn't something I was expecting or feeling like I was entitled to, it's something I sincerely hope can still happen in-spite of an official change. Just like artists do open csc slots right now when they can just as well use the loophole and avoid them. They're being kind to do so, and I appreciate that. ❤️ I'm not an artist so I am only looking at things from my perspective and that's someone who commissions with CSC atm. I'm just trying to understand if this will affect me or not and to what extent. Anyway, after speaking to I believe it won't affect me as much as I originally thought it would. It helped put things in perspective. I fully get that you as an artist or any other artist should not have to work for an onsite currency that isn't applicable in the real world when you can and would rather earn USD for it. ^-^

@Cresenta I genuinely feel like there will always be people who will offer csc slots. Maybe not a ton all the time, but I think giving people the choice will mean those slots exist without attachments that make them impossible to actually use.

I honestly love to support my fellow artists as well. I've purchased a few commissions in the past even though I am an artist myself. I would love to continue to do this in the future as well, and I am totally in the same boat as you. I can't afford to pay USD commissions right now either. It breaks my heart to see items, get my hopes up and then find that the csc option isn't an actual option at all. I just want that gone, because it sucks and it hurts. I want to feel like I'm being told honestly out the gate something is USD only. And I think a lot of other people who want to buy designs might feel the same too. :C

That's reassuring to hear esp from an artist, I truly appreciate it :) <3 True. I also feel like if artists weren't forced to take CSC comms, then when they do take them they would enjoy doing them because they wanted to work on it as opposed to being forced to. Which is always nice. When artists enjoy working on something, it's always turns out even better than expected because the process is fun and you get to experience their full creativity with it too. ^-^

I def like to support artists too. I haven't had the fortune to yet on Subeta but I have had custom art done for me from artists over on deviantart and etsy in the past (I used to be big on custom jewelry). It's super awesome! I hope one day I can do the same here. fingers crossed

I haven't run into too many situations like that but it has happened here and there and you're right, it does suck. :( Nothing worse than getting your hopes up thinking there is a chance that something may happen when there really wasn't a chance in the first place. x__x Transparency is definitely the best thing both for a customer and an artist. ❤️

I would like to make a suggestion.

I've both commissioned CW and made them so I've been on both ends.

Making this real currency changes things as it discourages people from accepting commissions which will cause the site to lose money since commissioners far out number cw creators (though you have the numbers I'm sure this is just my observation)

My suggestion to keep both on board is this. An option to split the revenue between the two evenly.

There is currently an option to credit the artist for a submitted CW so their usernames are on record. Couldn't it be arranged in a similar manner to the referral csc cut we get?

- yeah, I was one of the people who bought that item after you made it transparent.

I actually did say, though, that the cost shouldn't be passed on to the releasers.

I agree that transparency doesn't solve everything, because Valiska (as opposed to Lissa and Callista) has a ton of ink. I was so relieved when I could use Searchname's baby CW for Valiska without removing all of the ink, only one of them had to go.

Releasing a version of an item with no changes except skin tone to allow everyone to use it shouldn't require paying the full recolour price. I mean, artists can charge what they want, but it doesn't cause enough extra work for the site itself to justify the site charging the same price as a normal recolour.

One thing that might work is allowing CWs that modify the body to be transformable, like the Cavern of Curios arm mods.

You can buy one of those, transform it to whatever base tone you want, and then if you really don't want to buy it again, you can take it out of your wardrobe and transform it again before putting it back. (I usually buy more than one. But I might not if the item cost me 6-8 USD in CSC.)

I'm very interested in what plans to do with the limb issues!

(I desperately want a feline lower body without a ginormous tail but nobody makes them because the tail's what covers the legs.)

Even if it's a transformable option, we'll still be fronting the cost because it's going to cost us with the artist, even just to have the same overlay with only skin tone changes (and they still require unique shading). But at least with transformable or a drastically reduced submission price for that special kind of recolor, the chances are higher that we can see more submissions that include all of the 10 main base colors. This is what I'm hoping is coming with the change Keith mentioned is coming. Transformable or something like it.

I also made a body oil that worked for dark bases since the site one looks....highly inappropriate on them. I know Mesmer has made quite a lot of items that are tailored to look best with darker base characters - but the problem faced in large part is that they're not big sellers. If more people on the site who bought CWs used darker bases, it would be easier to fill enough slots to justify the cost.

And yeah, sadly I don't know what, if anything, can be done about base edits that don't require weird stuff to cover the HA legs/arms. I would love to see a solution for that too (like something that can vanish half the body or vanish the arms only etc) but that's a whole separate discussion haha.

Well, yes, transformable would require more cost for the artist, but it's the only option I can think of that would be fair to everyone; plus, I think the 'doesn't sell well' / 'fewer people use it' thing going on with the darker bases is not just a symptom of societal racism but also a feedback loop, in that if you, like me, choose to use primarily base 8, or like you, prefer to use primarily base 20, it puts a lot of limitations on what items you can use. Things for darker bases will not sell well until darker bases are less restrictive to use.

(Although there were issues with this on Gaia too and on Gaia a selection of either fantasy or normal skintones came with every limb mod recolour. You couldn't do all skintones, but you could do a fantasy set and a normal human set. The people who used the fantasy set did have similar probs to yours with base 20.)

Honestly, I would take cat legs without a giant tail and just layer a skirt behind them. I don't care for trains and overdress items with leg cutouts for the reason that it makes it impossible to wear anything but tights under a dress with them so I use skirts as backs a lot anyway because I'm not a fan of the butt-short front skirt worn with nothing under but skin-tight leggings/tights look.

I mean, the problem is that we can't force folks to buy the items designed to work with darker bases. They actually don't sell as well, so we front the cost for getting them on site and lose money on it and do it anyhow so it exists...but it's not actually helping to foster greater use. It's not a feedback loop when the items are being made (though at a slightly slower and lower rate) and /still/ aren't selling.

The solution is to convince more people to buy them and use the bases. I definitely think having a cheaper way to get these kinds of tone colorfills on site will help some but it's not going to solve the overall issue that a lot of people aren't buying say...CWs of natural hair (and when people do....90% of them still use them on light skintone bases instead of venturing out to make darker HAs).

I try to preview my stuff on a variety of bases to show how nicely it compliments the varied sinktones, but short of forcing folks to branch out, I can't really do much more to encourage darker HA base use.

Also I think we're starting to skate away from any of the points this thread is for, but you can totally mail/comment me if you want to keep discussing this (I don't want to get either of us in trouble for veering off topic).

I am excited to see there's going to be a potential solution when wardrobe v4 is ready for site use though. I'm really hoping this will become less of an issue to fulfill more base colors.

okay a few thoughts from me a as a "just releaser" of CWs

Maybe I am sort of lazy, but I can not really find the time and energy to learn how to paint subetastyle. I can do some scribbles and stuff, but even when my niece tried to teach me to paint with her computer painting thingy I was not able to work with it.

I like doing commissions and as far as I can think I hardly never use the CSC option for a comission (I have a limited amount of $ I turn into CSC during a month - or I try to stick to that the best I can) and paying an artist vie paypal is NOT included into my monthly CSC buying (stupid I know)

When I do comission any CW I only do that because I (and yes I MYSELF) want tht specific item for my HA. I do not really care if anybody else likes it or wants to slot on anything I want just for myself

I guess my "biggest" release was 20 copies and those were luminaire presents for friends

So any artist who would work with me (and sorry I would not want any $ profit for something I just want for me - so if any profit - it should go to the people who so kindly work with me and my stupid little ideas) would never be able to make any profit. So I would probably be seen as "undesirable" since I only do small batches.

So yeah I guess what I want to say is I am againt making RL profit for someone elses work. I want to keep doing my stupid small item batches, because I love to have some cute things just for me (and for those who like them, maybe)

I do not want to loose my artists (I really feel so blessed to be working with those persons who are so talented!)

I think it's a nice idea but as proposed before we should do more things to push our artists not just the people who have a crazy little idea in their heads.

you are right, we are veering off-topic. I might make a thread for this discussion elsewhere. It's a discussion that needs Mackenzi in it and I don't want to drag her into this thread just for that!

I respect your position but I also think most releasers (or prospective releasers, like me) are not only making (or planning to make) small batches for their personal friends as gifts.

There's nothing wrong with doing it that way, but most other people want to get the money they put in back as CSC so they can continue to commission and release new items. This is particularly true of people who pay their artists in CSC like Cressie, and I would be super sad if Cressie stopped making new stuff.

When releasers talk about "profit" made from CWs they commissioned and released, they're not talking about making USD profits they can take to the bank and pay bills with. They're talking about getting enough CSC from the item sales to pay for the next commission and the next release.

Everyone makes the items they themselves want to have, but most of us figure that if we want something that doesn't exist, we might not be the only ones. I am betting I'm not the only person that wants thylacines and fossas and servals and almost certainly not the only anthro avatar fan who wants to hide HA base ears.

And most people don't want to pay for the entire batch themselves and get stuck with them, particularly if they are not releasing their items in limited batch numbers.

I would not want to loos eCressie as releaser either, since I love a bunch of her releases.

That was merely my point of view. I find it hard to fill myy batches, even if there are only two, which is why I think I am doing those more or less for myself.

Maybe I am just to lazy or something.

With profits I mean more like USD as you stated and that is not whatI am after. I'd rather give those to my artists

I guess I am sort of lucky, that I have never tried to get comission money back from batches laughs For me - if the two batches fill and pay for the artists copy I am fine with it.

So my statement was purely based upon my view - not to critizise others

sorry if it was understood that way

Hi. I briefly skimmed through the thread, so forgive me if I misunderstood some points. I've also tried to understand your idea here, but I couldn't even figure out the basics.

I agree with what my fellow releasers are saying. We are already getting some sort of csc profit when someone purchases from our cw cash shop or when our batches go through. I think that is fine. Like many others, I upload items just so I can use them on my HA or give them out as special gifts. The profits just allow me to support other releasers or get more items on site. Removing us submitters would not help. It would only drive us away from the market. Some artists just don't have the time to submit, and here's where submitters come in. Submitters help get the items on site. I'd feel bad about profitting real money from the artists who created the cws for me.

As a cw releaser and buyer, here are some issues I've personally experienced with the system.

I honestly think that if you want more people in the CW market, the best thing to do is lower the submission costs for cws. This is very taxing on releasers, because we have to pay for the design, the recolors, and another roughly $25 everytime for the bigger category submissions? I never understood why the hefty price tag on one item, especially recolors. Maybe it would've made sense a few years ago, I don't know, but recolors of existing cws are very common nowadays. Paying $7 for one item (a short cropped sweater? what?) on a dress up game is ridiculous imo. I've played plenty of other pc and mobile games where I can get a whole set of items (w/accessories) for less than $7.

And what happens when an item doesn't do well enough to be submitted? I can't switch to the cheaper option of direct to shop after I state the number being released due to site rules. I personally wouldn't pay $5 for one tiny accessory item every time either. In fact, I regret many of my cw purchases even if I got them for slot price. I have thought about just selling everything I own and leaving the site many times.

Whatever this new idea would be, it won't stop me from making my items private. However, if the submission price is lower, then I would be more inclined to make more items public and keep uploading.

I would really want to be able to earn real life currencies with creating CWs, I’ve introduced at least three of my digital artist friends to Subeta, and the amazing CW mechanism, but they asked:’ Do I get real life money from that?’ The answer is no and they suddenly lost interest :/

And yeah just like other users said, the base price to create a CW is so high it’s shocking, especially recolors, like said. I understand processing CWs needs staff so it can be a way to prevent spamming CWs, but if it only serves this function, maybe we can find a alternative way, such as, only allow users to create 2 recolors in one month.

Hi there, I'm just a baby releaser but I can tell you that I have no interest in receiving income from anything I have in my store. Mostly because my one release was a gifted design. I don't generate a ton of CSC from it but I get happy once in a while when someone buys a copy.

It would definitely eliminate the need for people to purchase items and then release them for the artist and that really sucks. I think it will just cause more chaos if for some reason Subeta was to be audited and missed anyone that was supposed to receive a 1099.

I am not really into the cw scene aside from buying things and doing the occasional release so I don't have much input to offer there but I would like to focus on attracting more people to the user base and giving a way to earn money on site for users.

Restocking is a large pain now that shops don't clear often enough and I would really like to know why the shop clearings were changed because it is already hard enough to make sp through restocking and I know that in the past you have said restocking is not that popular but I still disagree. There are quite a few people, Me being one of them who save their sp from restocking to buy the csc cards because they don't have cash to spend. If the price of csc continues to skyrocket and there is no way for users to generate adequate sp and they don't have cash to spend then I feel like that will be a large problem. I feel like being able to get csc should be an option for everyone and if we have a way to earn money that would most certainly make it more widely available.

I am wondering if you have thought about how to do this. In the past we have had offers that had to be completed in order to earn csc but a lot of those didn't even credit users when they were completed. I think if we could find a way to incorporate earning cash that would work for everyone then it would be a very awesome thing.

Are there ways to implement this with current things on site? Like for example: Complete x amount of quests and get a cash reward...50 completed quests gives a user $1.00 for example.

Tasks the average user can do to earn money like say you need item descriptions to be checked for grammar or spelling errors. Maybe you could set up a system where there is a cash pay out for helping with something like that or other simple tasks that no one is really assigned to that would relieve some of the general work load.

i think that using the user base as a form of "mechanical turk"ing is a really good idea, considering how out of date a lot of things on the site are. if i had the opportunity to build a user guide for CW submission for some amount of csc, i would do it in a heartbeat. the stuff would probably have to undergo some sort of admin/UA quality check, but if you took out the initial work to update or create that documentation, and then had the staff just confirm it, it would save time for the admin team in the long run. i'm sure there are a lot of other parts of documentation that need updating that could benefit from this format too. i think that putting more csc into the economy would help to stimulate it a bit more, too

i agree whole-heartedly that the conversion price of csc <-> sp is making the cw market accessible to only a very small part of the userbase.

Getting into tax systems is a sticky wicket.

I agree with the majority of other users who find that this system will be more off-putting than enticing. I think there should be other things done to increase site traffic (like making sure the lag/site breaking happens less - more site events that bring in a lot of non cw people who eventually turn into cw people.). There are other more creative ways to bring more site traffic, like promoting better rewards for actually advertising. Most people I have talked to are ashamed (embarrassed?) to play subeta and won't talk about it via word of mouth spread. You see game adds all over the place but none for subeta. It just seems like subeta needs to continue to progress forward like the rest of the gaming industry. For instance making a cool phone app or some sort of thing on your phone for quick and easy access to things like daily links or event links. Everybody uses their phone these days. Growth is in advancement not stagnation.

Saint makes a lot of valid points right at the start of this thread. I also think other users point out some very valid points in how the overall subeta community will react to something like this. Basically what you propose is an honor system but that never works in RL.

I agree with what other users have stated that the proposed idea may make commissioners obsolete and only artists will 'rule' the CW scene - which I don't think is fair to commissioners. Without commissioners a lot of subeta commerce would dry up and drift away.

I think a payback system like this with real money will destroy the site. Not only the community vibes and cohesiveness but also just in general because you have an inverted triangle here. I believe there are more commissioners on subeta than there are actual artists. Thus your base of commerce is not the artists but the commissioners and people who buy thousands of CSC every month to buy items they themselves never commissioned.

The thing I keep hearing from people on this thread is that CW's is a hobby they enjoy and instituting a change like the proposed would take all the joy out of it (and even more people would leave, as they already are doing). Simply put you need to put the creative efforts in some other place to bring more users to the site. The answer usually is not to throw more money at it.

If you want to pay more people then hire more staff to do things like some other users have suggested. Or earning income by completing certain specific tasks around site - THAT could actually bring in more people from everywhere as that sort of thing is accessible to all users. For example: If I earned even .25 cents for completing all my daily quests then I totally would do it! Although you'd have to run the numbers on that for certain activities and maybe make the payout less because you would bankrupt yourself if not carefully planned and managed. Also it would be good to have the ability to pull the plug on that when ever you need to (while paying those who are owed to that point). Again though - sticky wickets when real money is involved.

I do think another option for some sort of reward for participation would be nice/good. Like an exclusive shop (for actually cool wearable items) where you can earn more points by selling more cws or something?

So I’m a pretty new releaser and this topic is probably dead but I wanted to add my two cents.

I honestly think that the CW payout is a great idea but I do understand the main concerns others are bringing up.

To balance everything out I was thinking that limits should be set. For example, in regards to us reporting it as taxable income. We only have to report it IF we earn a certain amount off the site per year, right?

So Subeta could set a limit as to how much of a payout a releaser can get without reaching that taxable amount. Regardless of how many CWs they sell or upload.

Another big concern I see is regarding artist and the price of their work. What if there is limit there as well? Like for each CW submitted, the amount we releasers earn back can be up to the total submission price of that CW but it will not exceed it. I don’t think the artist would be affected that way.

Where I’m coming from with my ideas is from my workplace. I have to deal with a lot of coupons, so people do save a lot but we also gotta make a profit. So limitations are set.