- If would allow it, I would totally back you forming a team to go through all of the wearables to sort in to the categories as you've described.

Heh, thanks for the feedback! It was just a thought I had as I was typing the post that I quoted (because earlier that day I'd gone through three or four layers looking for the right vest). I do really like the tags co-existing with layers idea, that's a great thought that I'd love to see implemented (especially because I could see it working with stylistic elements as well--eg, have a tag for "flowy" clothing and be able to find loose/floaty/however you want to describe it clothing, long flowing hair, etc).

I could see a dedicated team working really well (especially since there may be some unique items that pose a sorting problem). I'm also not certain that I have been specific enough to make sorting between the Background, Foreground and Adjacent a piece of cake (those definitions are hard to pin down). It would be awesome to have a group of users help sort the items and clear up any potential confusion internally, instead of having that confusion spread onto the users en masse. Still, the fastest and most efficient way may just be to pool all the users in an open sorting effort!

I'm sure it's something that a lot of users would find benefit from, but it's an even bigger undertaking! Right now I'd just like to see the layers fixed up, haha.

Haha, yeah, I'm with you there. (And for the record I'd definitely be willing to help tag/sort/re-file items, it's the sort of thing I really enjoy doing and find relaxing.)

Thanks again for your support! I added a little bit on how I think the sorting process could or should work. What do you think? It's in the OP now, but I'll post in below as well.

I can see the items being sorted in a simple process.

Body Example 1

Step one: display an item in it’s current layer Step two: prompt the user to confirm the item belongs in that layer by providing that layer’s definition [spoiler=Body Layer]+ items that cover two major layers (primarily Chest/Bottom and Legs/Arms)

• unique limbs and partial figure altering items that alter two layers (primarily Arms/Hands and Legs/Feet)

• items DO NOT cover several major layers
• items DO NOT cover single layers

Example items: Rompers, partial body suits, partial long dresses, partial long kimonos, partial figure changing items, unique limbs, small play sets, jewelry sets, overalls, etc.

Body Chest vs Body vs Full Body Chest vs Body vs Full Body Body vs Bottom

Body Example 2

Step one: display an item in it’s current layer Step two: prompt the user to confirm the item belong in that layer by providing that layer’s definition [spoiler=Body Layer]+ items that cover two major layers (primarily Chest/Bottom and Legs/Arms)

• unique limbs and partial figure altering items that alter two layers (primarily Arms/Hands and Legs/Feet)

• items DO NOT cover several major layers
• items DO NOT cover single layers

Example items: Rompers, partial body suits, partial long dresses, partial long kimonos, partial figure changing items, unique limbs, small play sets, jewelry sets, overalls, etc.

Body Chest vs Body vs Full Body Chest vs Body vs Full Body Body vs Bottom

Body Example 3

Step one: display an item in it’s current layer Step two: prompt the user to confirm the item belong in that layer by providing that layer’s definition [spoiler=Body Layer]+ items that cover two major layers (primarily Chest/Bottom and Legs/Arms)

• unique limbs and partial figure altering items that alter two layers (primarily Arms/Hands and Legs/Feet)

• items DO NOT cover several major layers
• items DO NOT cover single layers

Example items: Rompers, partial body suits, partial long dresses, partial long kimonos, partial figure changing items, unique limbs, small play sets, jewelry sets, overalls, etc.

Body Chest vs Body vs Full Body Chest vs Body vs Full Body Body vs Bottom

I like it! (Heck, if/when tags do get implemented, I could see assigning them working similarly-you're shown an item and given a list of the tags and you can apply, like, the most appropriate three or something like that.)

Other than consolidating smaller layers, which you've argued well against, I don't have any immediate suggestions. Most such thoughts usually occur while I'm actively building an HA and can't find an item I want to use.

I've tried to "fix" some of the worst layering issue with drawers, but there aren't enough drawers. Well that's not true, there are plenty of drawers, but I wish I could name drawers based on each layer rather than have to name drawers that then have to fit all layers.

I do like the idea of a team doing the re-sorting. Most items would easily slot into place, but when you hit those odd, weird or awkward items you could then have a discussion and come to a consensus. But I doubt its something that would ever happen.

I like your suggestion on how the layer sorting process would work out. I think if all the users were allowed to do it, the system could easily rule out individual variations (like somebody deliberately adding all wigs into bottom layer or people accidentally clicking the wrong thing). For items that are hard to categorize, perhaps some trigger could be set: when two (or even more) layer options are getting similar amounts of votes, the item would be flagged for staff review.

Yeah, the more I think about it the more I'm against consolidating smaller, location or function specific layers. The Ear layer effectively presents any user with the means to find an item for their ear because all the items in the Ear layer essentially have the same purpose. The problem with the Face layer is that it does not effectively allow users to find what they are looking for because Face items serve very different purposes (lips, makeup, eyes, glasses, facial hair, etc. etc. etc.). They are all part of the face, but what they do on the face is very different (hence my suggestion of at least adding an Over Face layer). I mean, you go into the Chest layer and all the items there are going to cover your Chest (the cut and texture and color are all different, but they are all tops). But you go into the Face layer and the items there are going to do all kinds of different things! On the other hand, I find that the Back and Lower Back don't effectively present users with the ability to sort through items the way Fingers and Hands do. The problem with B/LB is that you are going to see items like wings in both layers. That means if you're going in to try and find wings you have to sort through more than one layer - which is something I'd like to eliminate. Anyway, if you have any of those realization moments while working on your next HA do let me know! I'm always open to suggestions (:

I definitely think that the system could balance itself out, especially if items are sent through more than once. Users could also flag items that they are unsure about, then that item could be bounced to a staff member to be confirmed or resorted (or have the layer definitions altered to include truly stray items). I did a little bit of number crunching, just because I was curious. If all of the online users (currently 700) sorted through 60 items each all 43,000 items would be done once! Throw in an achievement (like the "Item Tag Helper" achievement) and you'll get hundreds of users who are willing to sort through a hundred or more items. I don't expect this to be something that everyone participates in, nor do I think it could be finished in a day. But a week, give or take, is not an unreasonable goal. There will be outliers (like myself) who will likely sort through thousands of items over the course of a few days.

I have 15K+ items and I understand your frustration. This is a wondeful labor of love and is amazingly logical compared to most rants about layers I have seen over the decade I've been here. Thank you for re-attempting this.

I do not agree with Overface and Skin, these layerings seem more like excuses to add more stuff to certain parts of the HA, or perhaps your personal preferences than real ontological differences that would be confusing to everyone.

If you want more facelayers (and I think this is a popular thing even though I personally seldom have ever needed all six) then that would be a separate suggestion.

It is possible to put Face stuff on top of 'overface' stuff, and it will work, and it is possible to put tattoos on top of plain looking clothes, i.e to put 'skin' stuff on top of just about any other layer and it will make sense. If you want a tattoo that must be required by everyone to act only like a RL tattoo ever, then use Subeta Ink or suggest a new zapperskin.

Also, isn't Subeta Ink not working anymore?

Thank you for your support!

I can understand why you'd assume that, like most avid wardrobe users, I simply want the ability put more wears on my HAs face. I will admit, I often run into the 6 item limit. But my goal in Face and Over Face isn't to allow users to pile on more items on the face. My goal is to allow users to find facial features and face accessories with greater ease. Currently, the face layer has over 3000 items. That's a huge number! A large layer that does not effectively allow users to find what they are looking for is a problem. Lips, makeup, eyes, glasses, facial hair, masks, etc. are all are located on the face, but what they do on the face is very different. I think the difference in item functions is great enough and the layer large enough to warrant it being split into two separate layers.

My argument for the Skin layer is in the same vein - items that fall into my suggested Skin layer are functionally different than the items in the Body or Full Body layer. It doesn't make sense to me to sort makeup and tattoos into the same layer as clothing. Where do the Skin items belong if not in their own layer? With the Body layer? Full Body? I don't see a way to incorporate them into an existing layer and allow users to find them easily. Compare to or to . These items are incredibly different, but somehow are all currently located in the Body layer. This kind of extreme variation within a layer doesn't allow users to easily browse through their options.

I also fall in line with 's statement regarding each user's choice to layer items however they please. I'm not trying to tell users to use tattoos strictly as tattoos by placing them in the Skin layer, I'm simply trying to provide them an opportunity to find tattoos (regardless of how they wish to layer them).

I love this! It can be so hard to find things, sometimes, and the layering system is so convoluted.

Thanks for you support ❤️

I would really love to see all hair items in their own category. I hate having to sort through everything in the head category just to find the right wig to complete a new avatar.

Oh my gooood this is so good, I didn't know what to expect seeing the thread title but I was blown away by how thorough this system is. I for one really love skin/overface layers, I really do think it will help sort items better. I'm always looking for items that this system would sort into the "skin" layer, they are spread far and wide over the other layers but all add about the same type of wearable to the HA.

And I'd definitely go through at least hundreds of items if they let users help sort things.

Yes to this!!! Especially hair/head I have so many nice wigs and I really cannot be bothered to scroll through 25 pages of head to distinguish between the head items and the hair items

Thank you! I did try to be as throughout and thoughtful as possible. I'm glad you approve of the Skin layer! My goal in including the Skin layer isn't just to make finding makeup, tattoos and other such items easier to find - implementing the Skin layer would also make sorting through the Body and Full Body layers easier for all! I mean, how weird is it that these four items all are currently in the Body layer? . Talk about diversity.

Thanks for the support! The head/hair change is one of the most favored (it's big enough to have been suggested on its own several times over).

I don't think I've ever supported an idea more than I support this one. It's a huge pain to try and sort through items looking for what would work best. As someone who was spent RL money on this site to buy CSC that almost always goes to wearables, I really want the wardrobe layers to make sense. The Hair/Head layer you suggested and the Face/Overface are my favorite parts of this. There are simply too many different items in these layers as they are currently configured to make any damn sense.

I love the consolidation of Back/Lowerback. Question about the Body/Full body/Skin bit. I think a lot of what you're thinking of classifying as "skin" could easily be considered "body" (e.g. the ), and then items that are actually clothing that cover the whole body, whether that's an outfit or a romper or whatever would be "full body." It would be a huge improvement over the current classification to have things that modify the body, whether that's piercings, body blush/freckles, or items like be considered "body." This way the body layer could still be a sp sink. I worry that with the separation of these items into 3 layers instead of a more consistent classification in 2 layers could remove a sp sink. The reasoning behind separating items in these categories into three categories instead of two makes a lot of sense, however, do you think reclassifying them in the two current layers would work?

I don't think we'd necessarily have the same problem with the reclassification of the hat/head layers into hair/head. There are SO many head items (that would make sense to be in there) that layer very easily that buying extra slots on that layer would still happen fairly frequently for those users who play around in the wardrobe a lot.

I'm torn about 's suggestion to combine the ankles and legs layer. Neither layer is very large, but they both have their own usage. If legs are reclassified to encompass socks, tights, leggings, as well as anklets, it does make sense (i.e. anything that covers the feet but is not a pair of shoes, anklets and other ankle adornments, and any other items that are not skirts/pants/shorts/kilts/etc.), especially since the items are not that different between ankles and legs. Personally, I would prefer to have all socks be located in the same layer whether they're short, knee highs, or thigh highs. Given that the culture has shifted and leggings are now worn as pants, I don't have any issue with those being considered "bottoms" for simplicity in setting clear definitions for each layer.

I definitely agree that we should keep a separate layer each for hands, fingers, and ears. We already know where exactly to look for them, so it's really just a matter of being consistent. There's not quite enough overlap for any of those layers to be combined with something else. I do disagree with your definition of "hands" on one point. I think any gloves, regardless of how long they are, should be considered "hands" unless they're part of a top (in which case they'd be in the "chest" layer). That way if someone is looking for gloves, they know exactly which layer to look at, and then it's just a matter of searching for "gloves" or another keyword and sifting through the options to find what length/style is best for your current theme.

I really hope this made sense. (It's been a long week!) I'm trying to think of reasons why this would be opposed, and it's hard to see them. You've clearly put a lot of thought into this! It's a really great idea to reclassify a lot of these items, especially if the users can help out. If there's an achievement in there (or multiple for doing, say, 5, 10, 25, and 50 items), I'm sure a lot of users would help out and we'd be able to get duplicate entries for all the items. (I'd definitely want to do a bunch! The wardrobe layers are a constant source of frustration when I'm playing around in there.)

Please let me know if you need any clarification on my comments. I'll respond after I get some sleep!

[edit] Holy crap didn't realize I wrote that much. Sorry to give you a giant wall of text to read!

I esp would like to see hair and head separated. I hate paging thru all the ornaments looking for the wig I can't remember the name of.