What a lot of people are saying is that the forums, as a whole, represent a sense of anxiety. They turned to private forums so that they could help alleviate that, because Subeta by and large has often been about monitoring your own content. Don't like that a NPC has a cigar in his mouth? Cool, there's tools to block the image so you don't have to see it. The main forums trigger your anxiety for whatever reason? Cool, here's a tool on site to make a smaller, more private forum in order to still be able to be social but be able to hopefully help with that.

Battling and not being able to earn loyalty points because you don't or can't buy CSC do not, as a whole, bring about the same sense of anxiety. If they did I'm sure there would be the same kind of topics talking about that, but it's really a matter of because there are so many people battling and buying CSC with $ to get loyalty points and loyalty point items (especially during bonus weekends!) that those aren't a problem in terms of currency. Forum points become a problem on that level because they are so scarce and people don't post a lot for the reasons that have already been mentioned.

It's not a sense of entitlement. The main problem at first was the outrage over not being told this by staff, but rather having to find out through coming down into a forum topic. It's that we, as users, have had a heck of a lot of good suggestions on how to fix the forums to help with people's anxieties and make them more active. If you think it's entitlement to think that we should have a voice and be listened to then that's up to you, but looking at the rest of this thread I'm fairly certain you are in the minority with that opinion.

Also I'd argue at this point it really is less about the forum points and more about the fact that the staff are clearly attempting to get people to use the main forums by providing an incentive while not fixing the vast majority of the issues that people are reporting over and over again are generally preventing them from posting such as the necro rule/unclear other rules/ect.

Were there glaring issues with people misusing a loop hole in private forums to farm forum points? Absolutely. But there were much better ways to handle it than deciding that a whole chunk of users who primarily used private forums responsibly now no longer get those rewards and have to trigger their anxieties by coming into the main forums if they want more points than the bath house provides. There have been several good suggestions over the past few pages about this, that if the staff had brought it to our attention first and asked probably could have been put in place without this much commotion.

Disagreeing with a staff decision is not rude. Expressing feelings, even negative ones like anger or disappointment, is not rude. Honesty is not rude.

Unfortunately, people with anxiety, people who are already scared to post will believe this nonsense. They'll be silenced.

This board has been remarkably civil. People have posted about how they feel and how this change personally affects them. No one here has been rude.

Has everything been rainbows and unicorns? Hell no! But that doesn't mean people have been rude.

As for entitlement, is it entitled to ask for consideration for a disability? Was it entitled for people to ask staff to put a warning on certain games? How is this different? When a person chooses not to do an activity, then certainly they shouldn't be offered a reward. But when they are incapable of doing said activity, when it is not their choice, and they find an accommodation that allows them to do the activity shouldn't they then get rewarded? If that's entitled, then so be it.

I disagree that people who don't post on the main forums, but do post in private ones, shouldn't get forum points. They're still posting and socializing, just in a different way that might be far more engaging than posting what the Rift spat out or something. I can completely empathize with social anxiety--when I first joined this site as a kid, I had a panic attack because I accidentally clicked on the forum page and thought someone MIGHT see that I was active on the site.

What I really, really want to know is the numbers. Like how widespread, exactly, was the spamming? If it was so widespread that it was causing issues with site lag, storage, whatever, I can understand why the decision was made. I still don't understand why this wasn't clarified by staff at some point; that's a bit worrisome.

Would it be possible to have a cap on how many forum points can be earned from private groups? A max of 2-3 a day (idk, ballpark number b/c you have access to the numbers, I don't). Something that's limited, but doesn't completely cut off users who can't, for whatever reasons, handle posting on the public forums. That would pull the plug on many groups dedicated strictly to mass-farming tons of forum points, but it wouldn't leave people who feel super uncomfortable with posting on public forums completely left out. Please have this information listed somewhere so that people know what's up and why they're not earning forum points quite as frequently in private forums.

If new users registering and immediately taking to farming for forum points is a big issue, maybe make it so accounts that are 7 days or older qualify for earning forum points?

Pleasepleaseplease clarify the site's rules, especially regarding spam. If a big part of the issue is people flooding private groups with messages, dispense verbal warnings & in extreme cases, temp forum bans. Staff have no issues handing out warnings and temp forum bans for newbies spamming to get access to the Blue Building. I'm genuinely confused as to why is this treated differently? Especially if staff have some way of seeing what's going on and know which groups & users are the biggest culprits. Nobody knows the site's stance on situations like these until a staff member comes forward and tells us. Subeta's own rules are largely left up to interpretation and ticket reports are handled on a case-by-case basis. A lot of responses for questions regarding rules in the help forum are "fill a ticket and ask!", and the reply is rarely reported back on the topic so any users with the same question don't even have that as a reference. They have to go fill their own tickets and find out, especially in cases where the topic is outdated and falls under the necro rule so they can't ping the OP for more clarification. I mean, have a recent example: the forum box spamming afaik wasn't treated as spamming. Even though it absolutely was a situation of people spamming and intentionally farming for forum boxes. "Oh sorry, I didn't know it was spamming!" makes about as much sense in that instance as me stealing a bag of chips and going "oops sorry, I didn't know that was theft.". My memory's foggy, but I believe we've all read and agreed to the site rules upon joining. Many rules that should be listed and readily available and accessible to users so we know what to do and what not to do? "Fill a ticket and ask!" I know a lot of the time the answer will depend on the situation, but it never hurts to have elaborations, clarifications and further details listed for rules. For example, if I'm aware that I can discuss a PG17+ game, but only if I don't explicitly and in detail discuss the content that gave it the PG17+ rating, I'm a lot more likely to go make a topic about that game and have fun chatting about why I love the game with other users.

[edit]Editing to add that, if it was a really huge number of groups doing it, to the point where it would take the UAs weeks to sort it out, making a news post to inform users that spamming in forum groups is not allowed and forum groups made purely for the sake of farming forum points are against the rules might've had good impact. Give them until XX day of YY month to delete the groups themselves before staff starts taking action if you don't want to warn/forum ban like... half the userbase (idk the numbers of people doing it so I'm guesstimating).

Some ideas to toss out there. I'm gonna emphasize that I've got no background in programming, so I'm not sure exactly how feasible these are.

1. Auto-detect "spammy" messages--ones that contain just an emoji or below a certain number of characters
2. Does the "Post" button still multi-post if you click it a bunch of times? I think that's how people were farming forum gifts but I could be mistaken. If that's the case, could the post button be reprogrammed, maybe with a captcha or something? (I know captchas aren't popular, but hey--it's an idea.)
3. I loved 's idea of making it so that users need to wait 1 hour between double-posting. I think that's reasonable and would curtail a lot of spam.
4. Instead of looking at each individual private forum, look at overall trends--e.g. the number of users compared to the number of posts, how many posts were made within a certain time period, etc. If any seem completely unreasonable (like a group of 5 people posting 10000 times over a day), red flag them, investigate, and dole out warnings as necessary. The system could potentially be programmed to automatically red flag private forums.
5. This one might be controversial and would have LOTS of problems, but maybe make it so forum points are awarded by users, rather than RNG. Each user could have 1 FP to give away per day (or whatever), and could award it to someone whose post was super thoughtful and added to the conversation. Yeah, it's purely subjective, and it might make FP far more valuable than they need to be, but I'm just brainstorming. :P
6. Users get a limited number of FP per day and get them in intervals, sort of like QP--for example, for every 5 posts you make, you get 1 FP, up to 3 per day. After that, you get no more FP for the day. But I suspect this wouldn't necessarily encourage meaningful discussion, but it would at least eliminate egregious spamming.

Ed. because I got a forum point LMAO

one solution i see for across all the forums, including private ones, is having a condition of needing so many characters in a forum post. like, say, 100, which is about a full sentence, to get a forum point.

That's fair enough but many of us have been pointing out why it's so difficult to participate in worthwhile forum activity. I had a look at the Social Scene forums to see if there was any topic that interested me or I knew something about. It was a case of locked, locked, locked, no point in posting here because it's out of date so it will get locked if I do. Some of the topics on Page 1 of the Music forum have last posts dated 2016.

"What Are You Listening To?" is a good place for anyone and everyone in the Music forum because it doesn't matter if posters don't share each others tastes in music. This doesn't lead to quality discussions, though.

This could be interesting as long as time zones are taken into account. If, for example, we're supposed to be chatting to Elwood, would it be possible to have people playing Elwood in relays so he doesn't only turn up when users in Europe are in bed?

Dear god I'm so going to regret hitting enter as I know I'll be hit upon by everyone that disagrees with me and honestly that scares the crap out of me but here goes.... Scrap the FP's, get rid of the source of all this god damn stress, DON'T FORCE US TO DO THINGS WE DON'T/CAN'T/FREAK THE HELL OUT AT DOING!

I will post this other wise my voice wont be heard and I don't want to be the one sitting around hoping someone else will fix things but I WONT be posting in the main threads and I WONT be forced into doing something that makes me extremely uncomfortable and anxious.

Again I state get rid of ANYTHING that pushes people into a corner, it's not right and is unethical, how would you feel (and I know this is a poor example but I refuse to go to extremes to make this point) if I told you that you could only dress a certain way (that you loath) every time you want to leave your house, you wouldn't stand for it right?!? Well you are doing the exact same thing to me/us!

Either make the 'forum shop' just another shop or make it so you can get points from things like the Bathhouse and include other things like the Rift and site games (Subeku, Decanter of Indestructibility, etc) random events, but DON'T 'offer' them as an incentive for doing something that goes completely against ones character/nature/comfort and in the long run penalise the majority of your users, after all Subeta was seen as a safe place for everyone no matter what their nuance, bring back that feeling of security that something so small and easily fixed has removed and inevitably brought about so much anxiety!

*This has taken me over 2 hours to put together as I keep worrying about wording and editing it and then re-editing and then stressing that maybe I should just keep my mouth shut and stay in the back ground, to those reading, please, please, please do not attack me for my personal view.

I've been very vocal on this, and honestly I 100% agree with you and I will die on this hill if I must. Because this is so correct it hurts, and Keith's answer is a cop-out plain and simple and it pisses me off.

Guess what ? We've had good ideas, you just aren't willing to listen because it's not what you want to hear. People have suggested lots of good ideas for the private groups; limit them to only groups with more than x amount of people, limit the amount of time between double posting, and limit them to only x per day for private groups are among some of the better ones I've seen.

You are forcing users to do something that many have expressed give them anxiety and it is neither right nor fair. If you want to give people an incentive to use the forums, or as you yourself said, offer up a carrot, then FIX THE FORUMS! We've told you over and over and over and over again what we, the users, think would help to reduce the anxiety surrounding the main forms and make them easier to post in. I honestly don't know why you guys don't get on that instead of deciding to punish us for using an alternative that's working and, as has been said, has several good suggestions regarding how to help moderate the forum points in terms of them. People will always find loop holes, but it is not fair to punish the rest of us for the actions of a comparative few.

Y'all can come at me if you want, but I'm sick of this. We deserve to have a voice and to be listened to, not to accept some half-assed answer and then have our suggestions on how to fix the thing be ignored in favor of easier blanket 'fixes' that punish the people who were behaving themselves.

You asked.

Make use of the existing box next to each post that looks like:

❤ post (0)

[ol]

Games (e.g. "Heart the post above yours") will still be possible, as will private arrangements ("you heart my posts and I'll heart yours"), but these arrangements aren't likely to generate lots of hearts for any individual post.

On the other hand -- as evidenced by this very thread -- the distribution of hearts already correlates strongly with post quality; no fancy API needed.

I think this'll do that.

I've read all the post here.

I want to offer a big thank you to all of you who have managed to post in spite of your issues and anxieties. Several posters have mentioned that its taken them hours to work up the courage to post, with re-reading and editing and so on.

Thank you for your words. I appreciate your efforts.

You asked.

Make use of the existing box next to each post that looks like:

❤ post (0)

[ol]

Games (e.g. "Heart the post above yours") will still be possible, as will private arrangements ("you heart my posts and I'll heart yours"), but these arrangements aren't likely to generate lots of hearts for any individual post.

On the other hand -- as evidenced by this very thread -- the distribution of hearts already correlates strongly with post quality; no fancy API needed.

I think this'll do that.

Best idea. 👍 💯

I actually really, really like this. It's a fun and interesting alternative that solves all of the problems I've seen mentioned. I hope this is seriously looked into~!

"This has taken me over 2 hours to put together as I keep worrying about wording and editing it and then re-editing and then stressing that maybe I should just keep my mouth shut and stay in the back ground, to those reading, please, please, please do not attack me for my personal view."

Hey, I go through the same thing sometimes (fearful of posting because of how others might react) and I totally support you. And like stated, I'm glad to see the posts of people who are normally shy about posting but felt they needed to speak up.

I support most of the suggestions made except for the "forum points are awarded by users" idea. That might lead to a popularity contest, which results in most of forum points being handed out to users who are well-known.

I feel like this is gonna get the "no one is forcing you/you don't get rewards for nothing" treatment....and while I agree, yes, nobody is being forced to use public forums and yes, rewards require participation...it's still totally unfair to remove rewards from all private forums despite functioning the same (maybe even better) than public forums. (Minus whatever accounts are created solely for "posting thousands of times to get points" as Keith mentioned as his main concern. Those should be dealt with as they pop up, as they would be if it occurred on the public forums. Why aren't they??)

Also,

I agree with this 100%.

Again I agree 100%. I've just done a bit of googling and Social Anxiety is a recognised disability. I think it's appalling that Subeta is now discriminating against users with a disability

I admire your courage for stating your legitimate view. I also admire the courage of everyone else who is scared of posting but who stated their opinions anyway.

People with anxiety shouldn't be forced to spend stressful hours writing a post with the additional worry about how their post will be received just for the chance of earning a forum point.

If Keith adopts the API approach and forum points are no longer awarded for game thread posts we'll all be punished for not achieving something which will be nearly impossible to achieve. Subeta is a pet site/dress a doll site. It doesn't provide much scope for meaningful discussions other than topics in Feedback and Suggestions.

I've been racking my brains trying to come up with Subeta related discussions for the General Forum with little success. Does Emma wear bloomers? Why does Quentin ask for old Graveyard Shop items and then give them back as prizes? Maleria employs Scary Assassins - Who do they assassinate?

- I love you, as usual! <3

- If you're looking to improve the forums, perhaps talk to all of your users who have moved over to Discord. Most of us are posting over there instead of here because there are smaller, private groups, and it doesn't feel so scary to those of us who do have anxiety about interacting with other people.

Discriminating against users with a disability seems...a little strong? Like, if you have trouble posting a lot then just buy the points from someone more talkative. That's how the site has always worked. If you don't have time to quest, buy the points from someone who does. Can't battle? Buy loot from someone who does. Don't like restocking? Guess what. Buy it from someone who does.

Forums need revamping, hell yeah. Making the change without telling us was a terrible way to go about it, yes. Especially considering the complaints about lack of communication we always have around here. But to call this, removing a bonus currency from one specific part of the forums, discrimination is insulting. And this is coming from someone with actual diagnosed social anxiety who re-read and re-wrote this post about six times.

This is a perk, not a mandatory feature of the site that makes it unplayable if you can't access it.

I liken this to Referral Points. My real life friend group wouldn't be interested in Subeta and I kind of like the separation between the two anyway, so I won't (or can't, for the purposes of this analogy) earn any Referral Points, which are an incentive the site provides to grow its userbase.

I can, however, get a chance to still earn these from the Bathhouse, even though I won't get them the traditional way. Even before, I could pay through the nose to other users who are able to get referrals and access the items that way.

I don't see how Forum Points are any different from this?

(Again, I'm still on board with forum points being earnable in forum groups, with some stipulations if needed to cut down on abuse!)

I think this'll do that.

Three issues with that. Well, two, the third one is a bug. :P

• Post likes don't currently work on mobile. This is a bug and according to , it's not something that can be very easily fixed.
• You can't unlike someone's post. Accidental likes and misclicks do happen and it would be a good thing to have a window of time during which you'd be able to unlike a post if you change your mind, or it was an accidental like. That would affect the script dishing out forum points. Likewise, if it's made clear that you won't be able to undo your post likes, people are going to be more picky with their likes.
• Post likes are given out by the community. People who are generally not well-liked by other users can get less likes on their posts overall even though they might make an excellent post. People who are blocked by many active users will be much less likely to receive likes on their posts because the pool of users that can see their posts has been reduced. People who have blocked them can't see their posts - you can't ❤️ what you can't see. People with large friend lists (or large forum groups) could still farm forum points. Nothing is going to stop a group of 300 users to make a private forum group where they like eachother's posts in order to drastically increase the chance of getting forum points. Even if it's disabled for private forums, people with a lot of active friends are still at an advantage here. Nothing would be stopping me from making a post, linking it to my Subeta friends discord channel and telling people to heart it while I'm doing the same in return for any posts they might make and link in the channel.

This would also involve running a script at least once a day to check the number of post likes for all posts ever made on the forums. Considering we still don't have a semi-functional search, I can see this... not working out so well. All existing post likes would have to be cleared first in order to run this script and implement this change fairly. Lastly, post likes can increase even though a post wasn't made recently - it would be confusing to suddenly have a bunch of events for forum points when you return from a hiatus because a lot of users liked your posts while you were afk.

Don't get me wrong, I would like post likes to have a bit more of an impact overall, but this seems like a complicated thing to implement in order to resolve the issue with forum points and private groups.